Messages

Another Question about video shooting with the 70D: What picture style are you using? Or don't you use picture styles?

Big topic you ask (ok Ill stop the Yoda speak).  My HDDSLR guru says to use a custom picture.  Contrast = 0. Slight desaturation (-2 or so).  Sharpness = 0.
This is for MOV shooting which is ETTL (expose to the left).  MOV is like jpeg in that, once you have a blown highlight detail is gone and can not be recovered in post.
This is true for any colour histogram.  So you want a margin of error, hence expose to left of zero.  Add contrast and colour/saturation with the software (not the camera).
Heres a link to my guru:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPIOPc71REY
If you subscribe to the channel and watch all the video, you too can talk with a cool German accent and be a fount of wisdom. I think of him as my DSLR video mechanic.

If we ever get 70D with ML, then this is thrown out the window, because shooting movie in RAW means ETTR (expose to the right).  One would probably adjust the pic style to flat/neutral then shoot ETTR (1/3 stop or so) to max. the captured colour/contrast bandwidth.  This means more detail to work with.
JM2C     

I did some of my own 3X tests.  I first shot 50mm f2.8, in low light, and found great colour, no CA, but aliasing and moire observed on some clips.
I went out another night, used my Canon 85mm f1.8, ISO 100-400.  I tried the 3X zoom, shooting taxis & streetcars in low light. 
I found the CA purple fringing was horrible on the car and taxi headlights for 3X. The 3X amplifys the CA!  Apparently this is pretty common, even wikipedia states CA occurs with lens wide open in high contrast.  I have shot a lot of neon lights at night using f2.8 on my Tokina, so I know the fix.  Again it comes down to knowing your gear, and how to tweak it to get the best shot.
1. Aliasing / moire use 3X zoom, at ISO 100.  Bump the contrast & saturation & vibrance up in post. I always shoot video with lowest contrast and slight desaturation then add back in post.  However There is no easy post production fix for aliasing /moire once its in the footage.
2. High contrast avoid CA by using f2.8 or higher.  Bump up the exposure +1 or so in post.  Post production After effects "Change to Colour" removes it.
JM2C
   

I believe your "...1/3 Aps-C sensor..." assessment is correct. This would explain the "soft look", etc. I will experiment with 3x a bit more.

The more I think about this question, the more I think I get what's going on.  I think in normal mode, the processor is basically skipping or selectively using lines. Why you ask does it skip any lines? I think with the higher receptor density on the sensor, in order to minimize noise effects the processor skips lines (hence the true source of moire /aliasing is this skipping).
This explains why smaller sensor portion handles low light worse (its not just a crop of same lines, its using adjacent lines with more noise).   More noise also explains weaker colour / contrasts. 
The processor in normal mode probably cant process all the lines as input anyways (hmmm ... always seemed RAW video limits is most hampered by the weak processor), so aliasing and moire may also be there due to processor limits as well.
Having skipped lines, probably also reduces noise on the luminance/colour receptors, so better contrast / colour.

That's the trade off, less moire / aliasing with a softer picture (more noise) or better contrast/colour (less noise) with aliasing /moire.  Neither is perfect solution, knowledge is power ... It seems a low moire / aliasing shot should be done with ISO 100.     Add whatever lighting / ND filtering to stay at ISO 100 to get the least noise and best picture.  That's my humble suggestion - Gaross try a 3X zoom clip at ISO 100 with proper exposure on a decent prime lens and see if it removes the aliasing /moire and the softness?     

BTW it seems if the camera processor was 3X more powerful, then regular mode should use every line, and then it should be the same as 3X zoom mode.  And to improve noise even more you need a 3X bigger sensor, so the adjacent lines are further apart.   

Because the video was created digitally, not optically, digital sharpness increased in this mode as well. So, the results was an over-sharpened, color faded, soft looking video. It was a failed experiment at best. This was also my impression when recording @ 3x in the 70d. Nice to know the camera will do this. Maybe some will use it but doubt if I ever will.

The 3X is not a digital manipulation. Its lossless and from my observations sharp. However all my zoom lens have softer contrast and colour at their farthest reach/zoom.  When you zoom, you also get less light on the sensor.  So unless you collect more light (some how?) when you zoom, it must be softer.  The 3X zoom pic. should be softer than one taken from a prime of the equivalent focal length.

I thought a bit more about this. The 3X zoom, really turns the APS-C sensor, into a 1/3 Aps-C sensor.  So even though its sharp, the light collected is on a smaller sensor portion.  Well we all know that smaller sensors have less intense colour/contrast and handle low light worse increasing noise.  So the 3X zoom, keeps the same number of pixels but now its over a smaller sensor.  So with less sensor it has to be softer.

I just tried this with my 70d & it did help eliminate moire but the video quality looked much softer. 

I think the same was mentioned in the conclusion from the video:

"Conclusion:
To me, the results are great. The moire is eliminated. I know this won't work in every situation, but it is a handy trick to have available.
There are unsurprising costs. The depth of field is deeper. The image appears just a little soft with the digital zoom, albeit with decent detail -- and I might not have the focus perfect. For me, I'll trade off the moire in favor of a little softness in the image if I have no choice. The other cost isn't shown in this video, but I've seen it in other video I've shot with the 3x zoom. The noise at higher ISO's is (not surprisingly) worse in the 3x zoom mode. So, the tradeoff might not be so clear in a low-light setting, as the ISO noise might be more offensive than the moire. My guess is that this might become an issue at ISO 800+ or so. But, in daylight, is unlikely to be an issue.
... Since I already have the Tokina (and love it), I'll use it with the 3x zoom when I have to in order to eliminate moire. I will not use it to replace a 50mm otherwise, as I prefer having the sharpness and shallow depth of field option if I don't have to worry about moire."

Who would want to shoot a potential aliasing/moire subject in low light? That's kind of like shooting a polar bear in a snow storm and aiming for detail.  COMPOSITION is sometimes is influenced by common sense.

The other video using 5D MkIII, noticed less contrast in 3X shots. That's something which can be addressed by changing your exposure or shooting RAW and address in post.  Its not a perfect solution, but if handled correctly a livable one.

Perhaps if you add a bit of hard lighting, it will increase the contrast as well?  Hmmm ...

Ok get ready to be blown away.   You want to eliminate aliasing and moire in HD DSLR video ?
Well here is a video for the T3i, that demonstrates. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AixwZupTyeA

He uses the 3X video zoom mode to remove the moire.  Ive watched another video using a Canon 5d Mark III, that does the same thing with 5X recording (which he thinks is actually 3X, I dont own a 5DMIII so I cant tell if that is so), they claim that the 3X zoom does not skip lines, and that's how it works.

And after watching the T3i video you can be thankful that the only other Canon crop with 3X video zoom is the 70D.  3X video zoom is not a gimmick anymore.

Apparently some folks have known about this for over a year.  This link also lists some lowlight macro and tele advantages.
http://www.cineblah.com/post/142/why-the-3x-crop-mode-on-the-canon-600d-is-invaluable

Most users report that only 3X is lossless, but zoom upto 5X is very usable (depending on how much up-resolution you need).  After 3X it starts into the algorithmic digital zoom.  You wanna shoot the moon?  200mm lens x1.6 crop x 3x = 960mm FF equivalent.  With a 300mm lens it becomes 1440mm ...

Your setup is the exact as mine: 70D, Sigma 18-35 1.8. This lens is TACK sharp at 1.8 too. Stays on the body 95% of the time. Video, stills, etc.

My other two favs for my 70D, are the Tokina 11-16mm. When I travel I like to start off with this lens.  Get the big pictures, especially sweet for nightime neon shots. Its parfocal so good for video. Its on 10% of the time.
Second fav is the Sigma 50-150mm ( I went for the II cheaper and lighter than OS), but is very sharp, and again not bad for night time. Its on 15% of the time. Constant f/2.8. The OS is parfocal.
The 18-35mm however competes with f/1.4 glass, because it doesnt need to be stepped down to be sharp.  The smallest gripe is that its max f/16 and not f/22.  Its on 70% of the time, and is also great for macro duties in low light.
Dont forget with the 70D in video, you can use the 3X lossless zoon, that makes your 18-35mm, a 54-105mm !!! However you lose the touchscreen follow focus when its on.

Tell you what, if Giovanni gives me his holiday photos, I'll lightroom them so he can keep coding!

I haven't heard folks talk about the heat of the 70D being an issue.  But I did hear that for the T2i, and the problem there was the LCD screen being fixed to the camera.  I suspect the greatest source of heat would still be the LCD.  Since the 70D is articulated, just keep it off the back and its not an issue. 

Hey TomJ

How do you check focus/view display from the coffee shop?  I havent set up my 70D on wifi, but I like the idea of keeping warm.
I usually have to stop when my fingers get numb and an even greater source of shake sets in.

Marsu, have you looked at the costs involved to go 5DMIII all the way? Its cost $3000+
The trinity of FF zooms, 16-35,24-70,70-200mm they set you back $5000+
Now if you bought a FF, and want bokeh, you will want to go L-Series, 24,35,50,85 & 135mm? Cash outlay $5000+
That's a pretty steeeeep up front cost, to get all that one would want on a FF for video.
Lets see a 70D, cash outlay $1200.
The best APS-C zooms Tokina 11-16mm f2.8, sigma 18-35 f/1.8, sigma 50-150mm f/2.8, cash outlay $2300.
The primes, well you are only going to go USM equivalent on a APS-C, so you already have 18-35mm f/1.8, so only two more needed sigma 50mm 1.4, canon 85mm 1.8. cash outlay $1000.
So lets see for the cost of just the FF zooms, you have all you need on an APS-C to shoot high quality film including decent bokeh.
So in short, folks are buying the 70D for the continuous AF to shoot semi-professional quality films on semi-professional budgets.
If you want wild life / action the 7D is your axe because its 8fps.  There is not much for still photobugs to want to upgrade to in a 70D, its got the same sensor size as rebels & the other aps-c, and it  has a worst view-finder focus.  Its not a prime axe for still shooters. You can put out a poll to get convinced, folks are upgrading to 70Ds from rebels, 60Ds, and 7Ds for the continuous AF video.

So again I ask, is it possible to have a 70D build that targets RAW video & HDR video as first functionality

I would be willing to contribute towards a 70D, as I have benefited from using the T3i port.
However in term of timeline.  It seems to me that the main thing the 70D is lacking is Raw video, and HDR video.
Other than that not much else (even the zebras are bigger on the display for instance). 
Not sure if limitted development scope is possible, but lets face it folks bought the 70D with a desire to shoot video.

At some point, the folks at ML will have to start End Of Life, support for certain cameras.  Too much new stuff folks want to use.
Not that I am an expert but here is the whittle down list ...
600D/T3i is the cheapest, HD 1080p camera, with both 3X zoom & swivel LCD.  Still best value for low budget film.
Then there is the 7D which is fastest sports camera (8 fps). Trap focus / valometer for the wild life shooters.
Then there is the 70D, which is the only AF camera with 3X zoom & swivel LCD.  It probably needs the least in terms of existing ML features, basically all that matters is RAW video and arguably HDR video.
6d - poor mans FF, definitely has legs.
5 MarkIII, the best FF  raw camera.

But after this short list, I don't see any crucial cameras that will have legs for more adopters,
in terms of going forward at this point.  JM2C.