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Messages - cthornhill

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Reverse Engineering / Re: Firmware Dumping and Loading into IDA
« on: July 13, 2013, 06:30:50 PM »
Thanks to all involved. this is very helpful...maybe in time it can all become a 'formal' wiki page. Sorry if I missed other posts, and I appreciate the refresher. Getting up to speed is a little daunting, but I will get there.

I second marekk's note about being sure how to get the addresses...any 'spoon feeding' is appreciated by those of us getting started. Platform differences make it just that much more confusing too...(mac/linux/windows)...but I will get my mac in shape eventually...:-)


Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 13, 2013, 06:24:18 PM »
so I guess we need a little help from 1% on cleaning that up....and I need to get my compile chain working to catch up...:-)

thanks - hopefully this will get into sync pretty soon as we can get useful test results.

I will work on my compiler issues per your other note to me. - Thanks.

Reverse Engineering / Re: Firmware Dumping and Loading into IDA
« on: July 12, 2013, 10:27:34 PM »
g3ggo - is it universal that we can always load ROM1 to 0xF8000000? I saw this post, but no other clear (that I saw) note on the correct location of ROM1. I saw a reference that indicated ROM0 may be fixed in size on all cameras, so this makes sense,  but I did not find a hadcy table or note about both rome.

Just want to  be sure - any advice welcome as I get started going through the ROMs.

Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 12, 2013, 06:46:40 PM »
Hey Marekk - can you help me with the steps you used to get the CHDK tool working...not sure what address to use with their debugger for instance...I want to set up those tools too if I can...if that is too much no worries. I will check the disassembly threads too.

Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 12, 2013, 06:33:43 PM »
Marekk - you are my hero! Thanks...I was up most of the night with a restore (from a failover earlier this week) so I am fried. I did spend some time while waiting on the line last night to read most of the old thread that stated this...I can see how they evolved from pushing the CODEC to RAW...and I am starting to see how more of the registers are being has been a while since I messed with CODECs and compression in general (back in my medical imaging days).

In general I am interested to see what we can get in terms of a data rate, and what that translates to in terms of images. Like Jharding I have a Mosaic filter, and it helps with IQ by reducing chroma noise from aliasing but so far I see some improvement even at X1.4 (about 64 Mbs) in IQ and I really hope that if we can get close to ALL-I rates (say 90-120 Mbs) it will be even better. There is still chroma trouble due to 4:2:0 (like edges of saturated objects in frame, and general chroma aliasing on finer detail), but not a lot we can do for that just now in H264.

Jharding uses deep noise reduction, and I want to try that too, and maybe in intermediate format like 4:4:4 transcode...but all that is in the future.

Anyway I would love a build, and when I can I will keep plugging on my toolchain to try to get to the point I can compile it too. For now I really appreciate your doing the heavy lifting!


Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 12, 2013, 06:50:51 AM »
To all - With some suggestion from marekk I found the source file for 600D new bitrate controls:

In here it lists many values that I believe we will need to find in the 60D rom, such as:
#define UNK_GOP_LOC 0xFF25516C
#define GOP_MISMATCH_LOC 0xFF048054
#elif defined CONFIG_1100D
#define UNK_GOP_LOC 0xFF2478E8

I am still getting a feel for this, and I see lots of similar data in the 60D ROM's I have but much does not match 1:1...for instance I have found at least addresses such as:

MakeNameEx   (0X1AE274,   "amvrFixQScaleFI", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE2A0,   0X1AE2D6);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE2A0,   "amvrSetPrintMov", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE2D8,   0X1AE2E4);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE2D8,   "amvrSetQscale", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE2EC,   0X1AE2FA);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE2EC,   "amvrSetQscaleYC", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE300,   0X1AE316);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE300,   "amvrSetDeblocki", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE31C,   0X1AE32D);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE31C,   "amvrSetLimitQSc", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE330,   0X1AE33F);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE330,   "amvrSetDefQScal", SN_CHECK);
        MakeStr   (0X1AE340,   0X1AE34F);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE38C,   "amvrSetGopOptSi", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE3A4,   0X1AE3B6);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE3A4,   "amvrSetGopOptSi", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE3B8,   0X1AE3CB);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE3B8,   "amvrSetGopOptSi", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE3CC,   0X1AE3DA);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE8E0,   "aOptGop0d1d2d3d", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AE914,   0X1AE940);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AE914,   "aIniQScaledIniD", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AED10,   0X1AED25);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AED58,   "aGopSized", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AED68,   0X1AED88);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AED68,   "aIOptSize2dPOpt", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AED8C,   0X1AED9B);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AED8C,   "aQScaleddd", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AED9C,   0X1AEDCF);
MakeNameEx   (0X1AED9C,   "aQScaledDBFAdDB", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X1AF030,   0X1AF041);
MakeNameEx   (0X2B8108,   "aGOPd", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X2B8120,   0X2B8137);
MakeNameEx   (0X2B9E4C,   "aGOPNextSet", SN_CHECK);
   MakeStr   (0X2B9E5C,   0X2B9E77);

and so short, I have to get some time to match the C and the ROM assembler before I am comfortable knowing that I am looking at the address that represents the one I really I am sort of diving into the deep end of the pool here.

If anyone is more used to 60D ROM and extraction, and they want any of this to go faster let me know.

I feel like I am starting to see all the parts, but need to get a lot deeper into the way they fit together. Also I am trying to read through the pages of the work so far on this option in TL...lots to absorb...small old brain to do it with...:-)

Also - if we need to just take up a collection to get a 60D body to a more experienced developer, I at least am OK with that...I will keep plugging slowly, but I am not ashamed to let others who are better or faster take it up, and I will help with that as I can, including donations...:-)

Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 12, 2013, 12:33:08 AM »
Bioskop.Inc - good news and bad news. I stopped for a bit to just run a fast test to see what happens when I boot - not a lot of time to shoot just now.

Good news - the Autoexec boots and is clearly a version of TL for 60D.
Bad news - this version does not have the slice CBR settings needed.

There is an advanced Encoder options menu but not the options now found in the 600D version as used by Jharding so I could not follow his post on 'Shoot Preparations' to try a test.

It has a lot of the older settings (many of which may equate to the newer ones)...but I really think I need the current version of the code for a meaningful test, so I am not planning to mess with the older settings just now. I think it may be just as well to keep pressing on with the ROM address data as 1% suggested. I have lots of that now, so I think I am going to press for that.

Many thanks for the autoexec. I will keep it and if I feel adventurous I may look at it more to see if I can decipher a relationship in the old menu settings to the new ones. For what it is worth the old menu options in this version are:

P factor
I factor
D1 factor
D2 factor
Gop0 factor
Gop1 factor
Gop2 factor
Gop3 factor
Gop4 factor

All default to 1.0x

I will dig out my notes on H264 and look at the older posts to see how these might match up to the new settings which are ( so I assume per Jharding's post - I don't have a D600 now):


Lock Slice: Disabled
Min BR: 130
Max BR: 160
Drop by 1: 140
Drop by 3: 145
Taper Rates: Enabled.

Mode: CBR
DblockA: -6
Dblockb: -6
PicPC: 0
GOP: 1
Bitrate Info: On (I find it interesting)
BuffWarnLevel: 70% (just in case)

From my memory of the H264 code process (long time since I hacked compression) slice is pretty intimate with macroblocking. My guess is that DblockA and Dblockb in the new code map to D1 and D2, and I am not sure what is up with the 4 Gop's, but I know we want to get to GOP of 1 for All-I...Like I said, when I have more time I can see if there is a map that works...but I really want to just get to the new code so we can test apples to apples on the 60D and 600D....but hey, this is a start.

I don't want to appear ungreatful - this is a helpful thing, but maybe not the final step. I really do appreciate it. If I get some video I will pass on the results...but that may be a while.

Thanks Again!

Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 11, 2013, 11:48:42 PM »
Thanks - I will when I get a chance - may be tomorrow...long work session starting shortly (midnight oil and all that)...I will let you know what I find out. I assume I need Tragic Lantern and this autoexec to see what happens - any specific build of Tragic...or am I wrong and this somehow is useable with a version of ML (if so which one?)

REAL STUPID...sorry. Of course - install ML then replace the autoexec...sorry, my brain stopped working for a moment there... ;)

Like I said - I will give it a try...and let you know.

At least it does appear that lots of people are starting to get some enthusiasm for high bit rate/All-I which is what I suspected would be the case...I do think there is some demand...good as raw is (and your raw tests are impressive in particular) I think there is going to be lots of need to keep improving H264 too on many cameras for some situations.

Got to run - will post test answers when I can.

Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 11, 2013, 08:02:13 PM »
not sure...I did not see a TL version for the 60D but may have missed something. I think the current code on that project is 600D...but 1% did say it should be portable. I will try and look again, but I think we will need a new build with data on addresses on the 60D ROM's for the code to run right.

Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 11, 2013, 06:32:36 PM »
Not sure if this is all we need...but for any help it may be, I exported a text file of the addresses/strings I got from the dissasembler (Pel's).

This is not quite the same as the view inside the tool, but I think all the strings are here. I only had time for a few min. looking as I have to get back to work, but I found lots of promising addresses for GOP values (if I am reading the strings right). Lots more to check, but if you want to see the file it is at this location:

This is NOT the Canon ROM (that is their property) but is data about some stings and addresses I found in that we are in a gray area...but if it is OK to use in source (the hex) then I think I am OK, but I will trust the admin's to let me know if posting this is OK. If not, they or I can take it down.


Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 11, 2013, 06:17:55 PM »
1%  and marekk have had some conversations...1% suggested we need to find the addresses for his Tl v1. code. Marekk found the sections in question (we think) for the 600D at:

I believe we should look at the source, identify the codes/addresses and then go through the 60D code and see if we can find those corresponding addresses in our 60D code. I am assuming we can search for the stings and fine the hex address that matches since it appears the code just pushes settings to registers by address so the camera can operate on least that is my rough assumption.

I am just starting to look at the code from 1%, but any help is welcome. I will then try to see what I can find in the ROM that might look like it matches up...again, just getting into this myself.

Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 11, 2013, 05:01:55 PM »
Hi - I am supposed to know about how to find stuff in ROMs, but it has been years since I did it...also I am pretty swamped at work. I do have the 60D code in my disassembler (I am using PEL's free tool) and got some output from ROM0 and ROM1 on the 60D. I have not had time to look at the stings and assembler much and it will be a few days given work issues.

I am not yet sure what I am looking for (exact strings /op codes/ addresses) I need to get some background and probably look at 1%'s code too (that will take more time).

1% suggests I try the arm console, and I need to get that set up on a workstation too (not done with that yet, nor do I have the app toolchain installed to compile yet)....

I want to help, but have to do only what I can in the time I can give it...sorry.

If anyone has suggestions, instructions, or wants data from me, let me know. I will do what I can, but I have to balance this with some pretty heavy commitments at work. Alas I have been away from day to day coding for long enough that I am very slow at this so if anyone wants to go faster and needs resources I have I will do what I can to help. Otherwise, maybe we will get there in time.

Glad to hear others have interest.

BTW - Check out the results Jharding is getting on the 600D in his threads on the 'shoot preperation' forum section...interesting stuff and what inspired me to want to try this on the 60D.

Feature Requests / Re: Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 10, 2013, 10:14:01 PM »
Time for a simplification...and a plea for data!

Last week I saw a thread between Jharding and 1% about the H264 controls in Tragic Lantern (1%'s experimental build). the reference is:

This post is designed to answer questions about the H264 codec control in one version of Tragic Lantern in a simple and practical way.

Jharding has been getting All-I H264 at high bitrate (up to about 160Mb/s) on his 600D. When I wrote to 1% about it he asked if any other people really wanted to do this on the 60D. I know I do, but I think the question is valid - is there much interest in this?

There is a bit of work to do to try and get the code working on the 60D (right now Tragic Lantern is a 600D project, but it does not run on the 60D yet). I agree that before anyone does too much work it  might be nice to see how much interest there is in such features on the 60D.

No one yet knows exactly how the 60D would perform. We have similar chips, more buffers, but a slower path to storage. On the other hand I know I get almost 20MB/s in raw, and that is about the same rate to disk need to replicate Jharding's results in Tragic Lantern (in theory).

If others want the advanced H264 options, please let it be known...I for one would love to be able to get 90Mb/s All-I if that is possible, and higher bit rates would just keep getting better. Maybe not as sexy as raw, but I think pretty darn useful and more economical than buying a new 70D for me...and I hope others.

Please help me answer 1%'s question - is there any interest in this in the broader 60D ML community?

PS - many thanks so far to Jharding, 1%, Marekk and others helping me investigate this a bit...I really appreciate your time and help/advice!

A1ex, Given what you have accomplished in raw, the prospect of 4:2:2 Craw is very interesting...not as much DR as RAW, but it would be really cool to get that data stream direct to a card on older cameras like the might actually fit at full HD or close to it on the slow interface to SD. Not sure if that could be done, but I for one would be SUPER happy with 24fps 4:2:2 Craw compared to that we have a good model of post processing with 14bit raw (raw2dng, etc.) if we could just do that same thing with 8bit Craw at least we would have super nice HD video (way more filmic than most lower cost broadcast options I bet since we have a super35 sensor). Using a cool LUT like VisionColor or others at this deep color depth (and with an anti moire filter) this would make the 60D a very interesting production tool (and the 7D too if it can be done there on the funky chip set)...very interesting potential...if it could work. Might be much more practical than  my other question about All-I on the 60D...It might be a nice compromise between full raw and high bit rate H264...and would cost less due to the lower bit least a bit less anyway. - CT

PS - Did a little math in my head while driving, an it made me want to bolster the note...No matter what happens on the 60D, the prospects for the 600D, 650D and (I hope) 70D might be more exciting...sure 14bit raw is super nice, but if 8bit 4:2:2 Craw is actually about 40% (a bit more) smaller,  not only would faster SD interfaces on those cameras allow for higher resolutions/frame rates (yeah I know you may not be able to down sample resolution on Craw given how you get it from the pipeline), but the cost could be radically lower if it really works at below 45MB/s (lower cost cards)... in any event, the potential of having a sub $1K US camera or about $1K US camera (70D) that has an APC-C sensor, and super high quality 4:2:2 video with Canon color science is very theory it might look as good or better than the C300...not 14bit, but still a darn nice image.

Not sure if this could work, but it could be almost as radical as raw considering what people have to pay to get that sort of image quality right now from other vendors (or even Canon). I mean the image internal H264 record quality of the C100 is way better than the regular video of even the 5D3 (much sharper esp.) - and the HDMI out from the C100 is 8 bit 4:2:2 and on a scope/screen identical to that from the C300...hence people jumping to it (C100) in droves for events and documentary work, and adding a recorder for higher end broadcast use. If you could get similar results from the 650/700/70D that would be about as massive as raw for many production tasks.

pps - Wow..I am slow...consider the implications of Craw on the 5D3 the speeds it now has for 14bit raw, I bet it could do Craw and a audio with no sweat...making it at least as interesting as the C300 in image quality at 4:2:2 (not to mention 14bit raw)...this implies that a $3200US DSLR could surely record the same image quality as a $16000US camera (and we know that actually 14 bit raw is already better...but Craw could be a lower cost option if it takes less storage (or just allow longer takes with easier access to onboard audio...again adding to the disruptive and beautiful options ML is already providing.

Feature Requests / Potential for All-I on 60D
« on: July 06, 2013, 12:59:55 AM »
Hope this is the right place...and if it is impossible, I understand...I see lots of exciting discussion of All-I on the 650D or 700D...and of course they have much faster SD cards than the 60D does (but the 60D does have good sized buffers at least)... I am using higher bit rates now on ML with my 60D and testing with raw, but higher bit rates in H264 have some advantages for me in some situations...much as I like raw... but I would love to get more than I am now, especially All-I if I could. I understand Tragic Lantern offers 650 and 700 users All-I, and wonder if that could be done on the 60D in ML...

In raw I can get a little better than 20MB/s, and that is around 160Mb/s - a lot more than I can see from X1.4 or even is really close to what I understand other testers of All-I on the 650D are I wondered if such a feature might make it to the 60D...I don't expect to get audio with this (or course), but if we could get close to GOP=1 it would be pretty neat...

Of course I guess just buying a 650D, 700D or even the new 70D is another option, but getting more out of what I have would be pretty nice too...if it is possible.

Like I said - if it is not reasonable or worth it, I understand. Just hoping :-)

Raw Video / Re: Canon 6D RAW vs H264
« on: July 03, 2013, 07:35:28 AM »
I have a 60D, and have been playing with both raw and higher bitrate H264. I suggest checking out the manual and posts on high bit rate. I found I can record continuously at X2 rate if I turn off audio in the Canon menu. I can do X1.4 on my San Disk Extreme with audio, and short burst of no audio X3. The X2 footage is really nice. It does not have the DR of raw, but has good color and low compression artifacts. Try different settings. Alas, the SD interface speed is still the issue.

Raw Video / Re: HDMI output interaction with raw recording
« on: June 30, 2013, 04:32:07 PM »
To the moderators - I suggest merging this and the "HDMI" thread as they seam to be about the same issue. It looks to me like people's experience is pretty variable, so I guess there are factors here not yet totally revealed. Glad it works better for some!

Raw Video / Re: 60D RAW video - it's working !!!
« on: June 30, 2013, 09:27:03 AM »
Well, they are (unless I missed something) shut off when global draw is off, but yes I mean the ones for raw. With the fast moving clouds it would not have made much difference yesterday, as I would have had to ride the apature to a silly level.

Raw Video / Re: 60D RAW video - it's working !!!
« on: June 30, 2013, 06:11:09 AM »
Audionut - yeah that would have sold me too. I did lots more shots I have not rendered yet of some other closer buildings (there was a crane in the background and some power lines), and I will try and get to them tomorrow or Monday. I will post if if things look interesting.

I also have to say raw handled the exposure range and changes really can just hit this format with a LOT of light and still stay safe. Very nice since at this point histogram or waveform or even spot meter are all off (with global draw).

Raw Video / Re: 60D RAW video - it's working !!!
« on: June 30, 2013, 01:51:30 AM »
I ran a little test outside today with my Tokina 11-16 and the Mosaic VAF-60D...nothing very fancy, but it shows a quick shot of downtown, and demonstrates the improvements you may see on fine detail in raw with the VAF-60. I put the shots on my dropbox folder:

The two shots are not totaly identical (had to dodge some weather and hence moved about a bit,  nor are they fancy. I just grabbed some quick shots in between storms. Both are done at 11mm, 2.39:1, 1600 x 670, ISO 100, and were exposed 'hot' at around F11 (in ACR I pulled them about 1.3 stops). The sun was coming and going really fast changing the conditions by over a stop, so I just depended on raw 'eating the light' and really did not worry after I took a general meter reading of foot-candle levels before I got to to the scene.  I wanted to use deep focus, and a wide, as a challenge to the filter's performance. I rendered the clips as lossless AVI, and pulled these stills from the Premier screen.

You may or may not agree but I see much more fine pattern noise in the details of the image without the VAF-60. There is still a tiny bit in the image with the filter, but only in a few diagonal fine features (railings). Overall I am reasonably convinced that the VAF-60D does help reduce image artifacts in raw, but not as well as it controls them in H264. I personally believe this is due to the raw file having more acuity and hence more artifacts are visible that would be lost to the processing done to the H264 image. I would suggest that for most subjects that could have issues with moire or aliasing due to fine line or pattern detail,it is useful to put the filter in place if you own it. I expect to just leave it in place, as I don't do still work on that camera.

Of course others may not agree, and your mileage may vary...:-). Of course controlling depth of field with wider stops (and ND) or longer lenses is also going to help, this was intended as a test with no other mitigating steps.

At this point, I am pretty satisfied that the filter does help, does not perform quite as well in raw as in H264 for what I expect are several reasons, and I really am not sure there is a lot more to say about it...I expect it is not a purchase everyone will want or feel the need to consider, but for those of us that are motivated to address the issue of aliasing and moire, are looking for an optical solution (not just technique or software), and have the funds, I think (just my opinion) the VAF-60 is a nice option.

Raw Video / Re: HDMI output interaction with raw recording
« on: June 28, 2013, 10:57:45 PM »
Thanks 1%! - Driftwood says he is not seeing any issue on his 5DM3 either (with an HDMI monitor). I will try a new build and see if I get the same results of different ones in a day or I said, my simple monitor was OK for all but the first two shots (the so called 'warm up' I guess). My EVF not so much...but hey, that could change. Anyway, I expect my 60D won't be able to act like a 5DM3...:-)

That is GREAT NEWS!...I was hoping the latest builds on the 5DM3 might work. I expect it may get a bit better on even my 60D in future, but the 5DM3 should have the spare capacity, and it sounds like it how I acquire a 5DM3 is another subject entirely...:-)

Raw Video / Re: 60D RAW video - it's working !!!
« on: June 28, 2013, 10:28:10 PM »
My $.02 worth on the ease of use of the VAF depends. The packaging and tools from Mosaic are nice and help a lot. In principle it is not hard. In practice, you have to have the camera supported, and you are handling a small piece of expensive glass around your open camera body. You lens is off, so it has to be put someplace too, and protected. All not a big deal if you are careful and have time and a place to put try it outdoors...and at in the wind, and in the light rain, see what I mean. Just as you would not want to change lenses on a windy day at the beach, etc. there are times moving the VAF in and out is not fun. No one's fault, but you need to consider it...the filter costs $400 or close to you need to be careful, and your $1,000 camera is pretty vulnerable with no lens and the mirror up...but the actual insert and removal is quick, so that is at least good.

I just don't take stills with my 60D so it is not an issue for me, but if I did, I would plan ahead a bit, and keep an extra cloth to put things on, and maybe an extra pouch. A bench or table might be your friend in this situation, or at least your camera bag.

Don't be afraid of it, but do realize it is not the most convenient thing in the world...if a 5DM3 is not in the cards, this is not too much trouble to go to, you just need to take care and plan ahead (find a place to 'change the baby' before you need to).

Raw Video / Re: 60D RAW video - it's working !!!
« on: June 28, 2013, 08:47:50 PM »
Post to no specific other comment...I just read the article on EOSHD about Skin (and watched the film)...I was telling the guys at Mosaic that using raw on the 60D feel like shooting film...I could not help but notice the comment from the director of Skin (Andrew Wonder) that using the 5DM3 raw reminded him of using his Bolex. I could not agree more - it feels VERY much like shooting on 16mm to me...I don't find it quite as consistent yet but I am sure it will stabilize as the code gets more mature. Overall, the short takes and heavy post process orientation just remind me a lot of small 16mm days...not as refined as an Eclair or Arri for sure (yet)....more like a spring wound Bolex...but those were fun...and made some cool films. The look is capable of much more refinement of course, but I really do 'feel it'...maybe no one else does, but I suspect some other old school (well old anyway) folks may know what I mean...:-)

Raw Video / Re: 60D RAW video - it's working !!!
« on: June 28, 2013, 07:20:57 PM »
It may be a few days or more before I can get a good set of clips,  but I will try and do that...I want to try to get downtown where there are more 'typical' scenes that might create situations like that (building materials and details as well as power lines, etc.) schedule and the weather are not too cooperative right now, but I hope to have time over the holiday (in the US anyway) weekend next week. If I can post before then I will.

I can also say that if you can call Mosaic (EST time zone in the US) they may be able to provide more data...I have found them very supportive...They told me they are a little taxed keeping up with all the changes on ML raw (small firm of specialist, lots of work to do to make a living). I think they are pretty responsive, but all this ML raw has happened really fast.

Sorry I haven't more time to do proper tests is a LOT more fun than some of the meetings I am in these days...I miss making TV for a living some days more than others...:-).

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