Messages

Hello,
I've been reading lately about the "new" capabilities of 5d Mark III, but I'm really confused about some things.

1. Is it possible to record 4K Raw 25p/ FullHD RAW 25p / FullHD Raw 50P and also see it on liveview display? Or you can't see anything while recording?
2. Is it possible to record sound in 4K Raw 25p/FullHD Raw 25p/FullHD Raw 50p?
3. What crop would I get in 4K Raw 25p/FullHD Raw 25p/FullHD Raw 50p mode?
4. Is it possible to record in these modes continuously?
5. What in your opinion is the best mode to record in so the image is sharp enough, doesn't have too big files and it is possible to record continuously?
Thank you. I've tried to understand it myself, but the amount of information is just too large.

Hi Termoxin

I am guessing by 'too large' you mean you put your head onto one of the forum areas and thought '..that is a lot to read'. However, I would advise with respect that learning requires a little bit of study and that without it, you will simply be asking the same questions everyone else had (including me) and be rightfully directed to a place on the forum to learn or read up. RSo reading the link by IDA_ML is necessary though and I do recommend reading all of it.

The 4k area is still an experiment so please don't assume it does wonders (although I am convinced it does) or that it will beat something like a RED (although again, from the results I am getting it is pretty darned amazing and has current 4k camera users looking over their shoulder as it is).

From my POV (as a newbie) to help you ...

1. Recording depends on whatever mode and/or crop mode and/or ratio you select. You will have to choose firmware type and then choose an experimental build depending on the firmware your camera uses and start making settings to see which you get on best with. One factor is how long you can record in modes so any expectation of 'continuous', at the moment, is dependant on a set of at least 3/4 settings and their related setup.
2. Sound is not possible on 'MLV Raw' - (that might be asking a bit much of a processor that has enough to do as it is). I use a mic and/or recorder with a tiny clapper board to sync sound though since there is not be a sync track to reference.

Those two answers should help you get going but you should come back and read the posts and forage for an increase of knowledge with anything. These is no 'quick fix' in filming. However, take a look on youtube under a '5D3 Raw 4k' search.
Here are a few of the best I have found where the  replies from them help you to learn as you watch the results.

3104x1298-14 Bit by Wayne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9xtUzTSC30&t=2s

3200x1200-14 Bit by Luigi Baccino
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEykpKDEXj4&t=27s

Both amazing examples of what is possible with this stunning update.

Thank you again, Magic Lantern Team!

[Viltrox 4 inch monitor]

hi, is there a way to see what are you really filming with an external monitor...in 5x,
also for focus that for me it is alway a bit out..

Assuming you are filming with a 5D3 (and also assuming that this might probably work on most setups, unless someone corrects me otherwise) while I am experimenting with 14 bit lossless modes I find a monitor essential.

Viltrox 4 inch monitor ($199 / £144 / 170 euros) comes with a hood which makes it easier to see in sunlight and you don't have to get down on your knees to look at the 5D3 display). You will have to manual focus but the advantage of these monitors is that it shows peaking and zebras in 99% cases and setups in any case and on a bigger screen. Suggest buying a baseplate with 15mm rods and using an adjustable display arm. That way you cannot knacker your hot shoe and with your monitor left of your 5D3 display you can protect your HDMI output from (someone) accidentally knocking it and breaking it.

As for seeing what you are actually filming, the HTMI output on the Canon 5D3 (specifically) allowed 'clean' output in 4:2:2 b bit after the 1.2.1 firmware update came out. I am using the 1.2.3 firmware to take advantage of this (I shelved my 1.1.3 firmware operational, Build #22 (29-Apr-2017 16:30:52) to test this too and it does the job quite sufficiently enough. You will not be able to buy a 4k display and expect a 4k output though because the 5D3 only puts out 8 bit 1080p to whatever monitor you use.

FYI: A firmware upgrade for the 5D3 from 1.2.1 enabled the 5D3 to record clean, uncompressed digital video data (YCbCr 4:2:2 8 bit) with encoded time code over the HDMI output, while (quote) "simultaneously displaying video on your rear LCD and recording internally to CF or SD cards" - you can discount the bit that says 'simultaneously' though because you can only see what comes out on the monitor when using ML (again, unless someone here corrects me and points to another version or update).

Huge thanks to ML for their work and also a little thank you to Canon for still updating the 5D3 firmware and thus seeing it as still as much of a flagship design (critics exc.).

Good luck shooting 4k.

Here are the links to references I have made:

https://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2012/5d3_clean_hdmi_out.htmlp
https://builds.magiclantern.fm/experiments.html
https://builds.magiclantern.fm/jenkins/view/Experiments/job/crop_rec_4k/22/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/VILTROX-DC-50-5-0-Clip-Monitor/dp/B00AH8ZMVM

All the 4k cameras can go to hell. Long live ML!!!

*LIKE!*

My apologies Walter. And thank you for the link, everything is working now and I am gaining as much experience as I can while using it.

Trying to be as succinct as possible without losing an obviousness in the meaning but respecting your limit of space either/or mixes of these could work:

1   To use this mode, exit ML menu & press index/magnify button (59)
2   Mode only selectable after exiting menu & pressing magnify button (65)
3   To use 3.5k 1:1 crop mode exit ML menu & press 3rd button up on left (68)
4   3.5k 1:1 crop mode only selectable via button:index/magnify set to x5 (69)

(I think 2 to be the most truistic). Line 3 knocks out the 'button position rationale' that you gave - e.g.: Canon 70D button is 'top right' so possibly harder to position with text. (Less explaining on screen may be necessary however, following Walter's epoch of a manual).

FYI: The reason for the two lines above looking the same in length (as in at first glance) is that although one boasts a longer character count the actual <real> length is down to the set of the font vs. the number of characters.
Not sure which fonts work best at the size for readability for users and may be a limit in coding (having not worked out pixel height vs. x height comparison on screen) but generally, some book font sans are tighter set (Futura vs Helvetica, for example).

Hope his helps and is possibly of use. Thank you for letting me provide some input.

P.S. Sorry for not giving the answer directly - I want you to find the solution on your own.

I did find the solution. The answer is 'the zoom (magnify button) must be depressed to x5 because it affects ML MENU's ability to select greater resolutions than 1920' ...
Now who on earth would have figured that one out as easy (or stupid, depending on your assessment of me as a noob). OK, so I am an honorary member of the 'DUH' club but head is well scratched and for good reason. Allow me to explain.

Among the Canon's I have had (and relevant to this post, am using today and which in total number: 5), the one thing that one does tend to do on all of them (dumb though we DOP's are) is to think of a <mag> button as a control for a zoom function for anything other than tighter focussing. In this case, a button that 'zooms' picture content less for focussing but more important, so that a zoom calculation enables a mode that affects the ability to access something in a non-linked menu as a prime function (the path to 4k recording).

Yes, how wrong I could be but a given misunderstanding comes from a lack of knowledge, not a proof of idiocy. I will listen to that video again though.

But, in this case, lest we wander on, although zoom was set to x5 in the PREFS main menu selection, the message 'To use this mode, please enable the x5 zoom in Liveview' does not provide enough information to lead one to that realisation. Not immediately. But given that,  most messages have to be shortened to fit them in. it was easy for one to think it meant selecting 'Liveview movie tweaks' in the PREFS menu because, surprise, surprise, there it is sitting in there.

So adding 'To use this mode press the third button up on your camera'... is not your fault at all. Or mine, for that matter. Because dammit Canon, you should have known ML needed a bigger screen to explain it in much greater detail.

Thank you, a1ex.

The issue is not string length, but proper spelling. Google can find things even with some misspellings, while forum search cannot.

3.5K 1:1 centered x5

gives the expected result in the search box (try it).

Doing that now ... Where I come from the word is 'centred' ... We would need to be sharing at least one beer on a porch to broach the subject (safely and with beings intact) as to who was responsible for something called 'American English' (a contradiction in itself).

Forum search does not use strings with less than 3 letters. Go Google:
http://bfy.tw/Fw9I

Wow! That link was nothing short of amazing !!! Almost felt surreal watching it.

[all]

Every single time a ML menu option is grayed out, there is a message at the bottom of the screen, telling you why it's grayed out. Please read it out loud and do what it says. If that doesn't solve your issue, read on.

The video looks fine to me, and it's not outdated (other than the build number printed in the Help menu). If you are seeing anything different:

1) make sure you are really following all the steps from the video
2) if in doubt, watch the video with sound enabled
3) document the difference between what you are seeing and what's in the video properly.

I'd even go as far as asking you to find one (1) single difference on the user interface side between the latest build and what's shown in the video. Without doing that, I somehow doubt you'll be able to tell whether this tutorial is outdated or not.

P.S. Sorry for not giving the answer directly - I want you to find the solution on your own.

Thanks a1ex. Don't be sorry. I don't expect to be handed any 'fish' on a plate at all or I become less valuable to the team in future testing (and which I intend to do live on client's work). I also don't want to treat any work in a way that disheartens the creation of something that others might take away and never comes back to contribute toward. So please forgive me for asking questions to get to a point of knowing the genius in the work. I spent 2 hours experimenting today and 2 days prior learning as much as I could before I got to this point and became loop ignorant as well as stuck.

Anyway, I tried a search using the Forum Search button for '3.5K 1:1 centred x5' but it brought up a '0' result. A search for 'crop mode' successfully brought me here.

Contrary to your assumption, I have followed everything again in Jonathan's video, word for word and listened carefully, and three times now (varied with reformats in FAT32, reboots etc. on three versions of crop-red inc 2 firmware changes) but without knowing where crop mode lives off other 'needed' menu items, little wonder I am stuck. 

'Crop Mode' is greyed out when selecting 3.5k 1:1
Same message at base of LV saying 'To use this mode, please enable the x5 zoom in Liveview'
PREFS main menu, select 'Liveview zoom tweaks'
Enable x5 (already done)
Disable x10 (already done)
Head back to the 'Crop Mode under MOVIE main menu.

It still says 'To use this mode, please enable the x5 zoom in Liveview'

Little wonder that head scratching goes on with the thought as to whether I have something turned on (did not touch anything since installing ML clean) that Jonathan had on that I don't.
But without knowing what, I thought I would ask if someone with more experience than I, an ML student might learn? By being taught to ask questions. if you want to head me off in a direction then please give me a clue which one. I am happy to learn.

I really do appreciate the work you guys have put in and bravo on this major advance. (Not to mention a huge bravo for coming on here and supporting it directly. I feel honoured and embarrassed, but thank you all the same).

And maybe some suggestions concerning layout, structure, contents ....
What do you think? Too much? Too complicated? Too little? Wrong approach? Sounds good, doesn't work ... forget that, please ...

I can help create a semi-commerical manual that can be downloaded as a PDF or made as a professional, instructional video (having written quite a few over the decades).
Two suggested ways toward a <near perfect> manual (nothing = perfect or we'd ever want perfection).

Of course, versions/types of ML built to camera type is the biggest issue. So we either make one book with all Canon types in it or we make different books with different types. (This I would suggest as option 1 then it matches consistency with the ML site).
I don't have every Canon out there. I currently have 2 so there would have t be group of people who can supply me with every screen from the back of their Camera. No problem on quality, I suggest that I make a 'generic' screen and photoshop in the differences (20 years on photoshop so am no newbie here).

Suggest two options to discuss where one would be better before designing/making a concise but near perfectly understandable manual (which I can create as an internationally understood PDF (all languages), in video (again, all languages) and/or printed (if people prefer a printed one that I could charge at cost plus postage).

1.   'Ikea' approach to remove necessity to have to remove need for multi-language versions.
2.   LiveView Screen Approach. I would prefer a 'near to' Jonathan DeNicholas Vimeo approach where each screen is shown leading to a successful and working model.

Very Important to add the build used in the manual as a link under the PDF or Video link. Would be a bit of a support disaster to offer a manual that bears no relation to instructions (my only criticism of the Jonathan DeNicholas Vimeo where the current experimental build does not work to the instructions given there. (if any of those very lucky people out there are running the 27th April crop/experimental build please send me this ML holy grail, thank you).

I would divide the 'book' into these sections:

Cover would show full camera (or icon with words (e.g.: 5D Mkiii) and camera back with LiveView screen showing sample page

Section 1   Before installing ML. Terms. Conditions. Warnings. etc.
Section 2   Installing ML
Section 3   Setting up ML
Section 4   Using ML
Section 5   Modules Links with notes / Technical 'about' section
Section 6   Web refs to every ML link worthy of following or keeping an eye on.

May even be nice to update with latest examples of filming created with links.

My dime's worth. Please be as critical as you like.

(Hit 'modify button) - oh and before I forget. Many manuals are written from memory, recent or old, and then put out. I prefer to TEST, TEST AND TEST AGAIN like I was a newbie to test to see if what has been written 'actually' works. In 99% manuals there are flaws. It isn't the user. Its the manual writer.

I shoot 2880x1620 (about 7 seconds) or 2880x1206 (continuous) to get some really great looking HD final output. So 3 pixels become 2, like an Alexa.
With 3.5K centered 5x mode, because vertical resolution is capped at 1320, you hit this wall quickly if you need taller than 2.39:1 aspect ratio. Plus, you need FPS Override to bring the 30fps down to 23.976 or 24, which introduces more instability.
It's fun to use crop_rec on steroids to push the camera to its limits, both 3K and 3.5K open up fun experiments with some Ben-Hur super wide aspect ratios, but I think the 2x crop in 3K 1:1 mode is the most useful when you're doing (or at least trying to do) real work.

MichaelVito - I would LOVE to shoot in 2880x1206. But today, its still a bucket dream. Which build are you using, please?
I downloaded magiclantern-crop_rec_4k.2017Dec19.5D3123.zip and followed instructions on Jonathan DeNicholas excellent Vimeo feed: https://vimeo.com/217313287.
Loading from X2000 Lexar SD (rec. to Komputabay CF 1000).

Vimeo instruction contradicts suggestion to access 3.5k 1:1 in crop mode (yes x5 is enabled and x10 disabled). Its greyed out. No access.
FYI, all modes above 1920 give me nothing but interference (on Liveview it looks like an old tv interference graded in pinkish).
So I bit my tongue and resorted to a (simpler menu) nightly build.

Any ideas, anyone, for me to see the light and to carry me into this great, 4k in the sky kind of place where you all live happily ever after?

1   Would you suggest I download any modules?
2   Uninstall and reload?
3   Another option that I missed?

Forgive me for growing an issue that may have been dealt with but I looked for a day on the forums to see if there was anything that sounded close to my issue with the pink screen.

Thank you

Sorry, kudos for effort but your instruction does contain several flaws. In general I think your procedures are overcomplicated, using outdated files and unneccessary steps.

Next week I have some time to look into peer-review enabled manual/help text platform. Hope seeing your input there, soon.

Hi Walter. My instructions were the same instructions from RenatoPhoto; suggestions came from my experience following them and didn't want people to miss the point not to load the 1.1.3 boot .fir unless you have the 1.1.3 .fir firmware installed.

Been using ML for (has it been a decade)? 50D, 550D, 70D and recently going back to the 5D3 to experiment even more with this stuff so I will defiantly call in and check your peer-review enabled manual/help text platform.
I patted myself on the back when I got a 14 bit 1920x818 file (About as high as I can get on a Nightly Build (but 14 bit? Bravo, ML).

Admit, getting 4k to work on my 5D3 has been finicky and I cannot match the results some people are getting <yet> and there is, as you put it, 'inadequacy' and 'flaws' but what part of 'experimental' in the term Experimental Build would be devoid of those? Solution? Report. Wait.

PS: I used to write tech manuals if I can be on any help in my spare time (currently 'spare time' being between midnight and 7 in the morning although have been known to work during sleep).

With respect, RenatoPhoto, your instructions do not match what is on the 5D3 menu lists. For example, there is no file called: raw_rec module (in the crop build for 1.1.3 for example). Other instructions are either not complete or lacking extra info saying which file they pertain to. Possibly because these are 'general' instructions and every build is different? How can anyone know? There is no footnote.

On any walk-through, missing out one setting (or a number) is crucial for some. It can affect the operation of the final outcome and (in my case) cause issues (where I nearly bricked a camera due to lack of instructional detail but with care, guided back to normal)!

I tried everything. Firmware 1.2.3. Firmware 1.1.3 (and I ain't stupid - I can write in C) but sadly, still no 4k for me. Max setting 1920 that is stable. Even the excellent  Topic: crop_rec on steroids: 3K, 4K, 1080p48, full-resolution LiveView post video  that told me exactly what to did not work. Why? If the instructions were complete then why didn't it work?

I suggest it is because the build used on the Vimeo film is the ONLY one it works on.

Sadly, now there is no way in the world to find the build on the crop_rec_4k.2017Apr29.5D3113 file built on 29. 04. 2017 - seems to be like the holy grail in that it seems to be only one that works the miracles - but nobody can find it! Google can't. I can't. Who is left?

But I do not feel like giving up. Desperate, yes. Frustrated, yes. So please don't delete me and someone, somewhere, for the love of ML, please show me where I can find a detailed (as in something that really, really does work) and gets me recording smoothly.

And if someone can, I will throw £ at the bearer of the best solution that works and put the results on Youtube to help everyone else that really, really wants this to work.

[This is not ML's fault.]

Unless you... what?!

(Similar to what I was thinking last night, Nuno, but today I am here, still breathing) ...

Spec: 5D3 running firmware 1.2.3.
(On a Lexar Card 32gb 2000x running 300 MB/s. 2 Komputabay 1000 cards).

I think there are few or inadequate instructions or warnings. This is not ML's fault. It is down to the fact that there are so many posts and it is impossible to cross-correlate certain ammends to instructions with warnings.
But based on recent experience, please allow me to suggest an edit to a front page to eradicate one stream of issues. Moderators/Admin? Please feel free to edit/update this in your current instructions on the 5Dmkiii' 'installation' instructions (link below).

I have recently had a 'stall' where my 5D3 stopped during the install process happen to me so my solution posted here has been 'tested' but I did safely recover by following this process.

I wanted to downgrade to 1.1.3 due to many loading/setting up instructions not seeming to be relevant to 1.2.3 and I wanted some of the crop features in 1.1.3.
Uninstalled ML for 1.2.3. (Note: This flow is essential before installing new Canon Firmware)

Uninstall ML
CHECK YOUR BATTERY IS FULLY CHARGED OR USE MAINS POWER IF YOU HAVE IT
Run the same firmware update that you ran when you installed ML using the same ML file that you used to install it the first time.
The firmware procedure will start.
On screen Restart camera will appear.
Wait so that ML can uninstall (see 'countdown' text at the base of your camera screen).
After ML has been uninstalled you should see a message that says: 'boot flag has been disabled.'
Restart your camera.
Check all is OK.
(In every case I suggest waiting until the red light on your 5D3 has finished flashing/writing to card or camera before dropping out batteries or turning it off or pulling any cards out).


NEW ML 1.1.3 INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS
In my experience, this is from a firmware downgrade from 1.2.3 (or any other firmware).
Before you downgrade, after uninstalling ML (see above), as it says, you have to ensure that you set the boot flag to make the SD Card bootable.

Updated instructions (my experience and solution pointed out in red)
So I have updated the instructions on the following page: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5520.0

1. Format card on PC (must use card reader) - (note: if using a Mac, format using Utilities in the Applications folder) and then format on Camera.
2. Put card back into card reader (PC or Mac) and copy the 5D3-113-bootflag.fir file to the card root directory.  Get it here: http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/5D3/5D3-113-bootflag.fir - IMPORTANT: CHECK THAT THE FIRMWARE YOUR CAMERA USES IS 1.1.3 or your camera will go into a 'loop' with the red light flashing and nothing seeming to load and your first thoughts are that you may have bricked your camera. You have not. If this happens to you, AFTER the red light has flashed, turn off the camera and drop out the battery at the same time.
2a. Install/downgrade the firmware that you wish to downgrade to by formatting your card (as above) and by installing ONLY the firmware .fir file on your card. Run the firmware update as per Canon instructions. Note: You cannot download older firmware updates from the Canon site. You must download any older .fir files from other websites.
After firmware downgrade, check on your Canon screen that it has installed.
3. Put the card back in Camera and go to the Firmaware update section (Canon Menu) do an update with the 5D3-113-bootflag.fir  Make sure you have a full battery, a dead battery during any firmware update could be a disaster.
4. Once the firmware update is finished you have set the bootflag on your camera. 

Install 1.1.3 as per instructions her on the forum.