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Messages - CF

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Main Builds / Re: Nightly Builds - try the very latest stuff here
« on: March 02, 2015, 01:02:38 AM »
If WTF is your word of choice... WHY on earth do you even bother to answer...

What is misleading there...

Well for ONE... The nightly builds which are CURRENT and NOT Old are ALL for Firmware 113. Under 113 it states that one cannot install with Firmware 113 but has to download firmware 123... For Christ Sake... Put the Updates of the nightly where it belongs then, in the first place....

All this confusion. And super poor documentation. Charge money for this software and get someone with half a brain to write the manual and clear up the misinformation on the site...

I myself would gladly pay $100 for the software is such were the case !!!

And if a rough mouth is ALL your brain can deliver - then DONT bother answering.

Main Builds / Re: Nightly Builds - try the very latest stuff here
« on: March 01, 2015, 04:27:21 PM »
I don't get WHICH Nightly to download. ON 5DMKIII under the 113 firmware it states that I cannot use the install package for first installation. And asks me to download and install the 123 firmware...
So which is it.... There are two 5DMKIII download options... 113 and 123. 113 states that I should download 123. But 123 has not been updated since 2014-08-07 00:01:30 +0200 -- whereas 113 is the most reason one from this February...

I would really like some input here... And perhaps someone could go about changing the highly misleading information on the nightly downloads section...


Since two days now, I get a white page when trying to access that nightly builds..

What happened... Did Canon Sue You ???


Maybe something to do with BayerGreenSplit or lack off in the DNG tag?

I've tried changing the EXIF Tags... SG doesn't care one Bit ;-)

Thank you for that...
why is that ugly green? and what is the best way to get rid off? (when i use direct link from premiere its not there...)

No clue about the green. My best bet is that SG is not reading the metadata of the RAW cDNG. In PPRO the the image is Magenta and has a 2.2 Gamma curve applied to it as well, to make things even more complicated. Green and Magenta is basically the same, or should I say opposite thing ;-)

I've been beta testing a SG Plug-In dealing with this. If and when it's up for public release, I don't know !

Andy, I was not insinuating anything. I was being straight forward in my writing. I don't think that I said that your product wasn't going to provide anyone with results. I got involved in this thread as per what I wrote in my posts... " true log space conversion" etc etc etc...

If anyone was insinuating anything, it was that you ;-)

I use SG for real-time Debayering on rMBP with a fast SSD. Resolve gets me 12 frames per second. SG a WHOLE lot more. I don't need more than the rMBP. I work with cDNG Directly and archive in PR4444.
Would never use Cineform. Never had any good experience with that codec or software.

Anyway.... Nice evening to you to  :)

I personally love Speedgrade and the way it handles RAW. It serves me the images as Linear as they are. All green, very ugly and extremely unusable, initially. However, I can do ANYTHING to them that I want - a developers dream. And I don't need to work against any Lightroom, Da Vinci Resolve Linearization Curves. It is easier to apply to a linear RAW, the amount of Gamma or whatever one needs than to try and take it off those auto-pilot algorithms. Resolve to me is like Lightroom - Automatic as H*** and I don't like that. SG (I am NOT working for adobe) is IMO the most fantastic software I have ever used.
Weird and ugly interface, almost no documentation but with a POWER and potential that no other app has ;-)

So if anyone wants to learn, get a premature heart attack, get unprecedented development possibilities and have fun all at the same time, try Speedgrade ;-)

Dear CF,
Thank you for your very detailed explanation,
As one who do not know about raw as you...
Why is there log space tab in speedgrade let say, containing rec709 and arri alexa and red etc'  if log space is not needed?

Speedgrade, handles all kinds of image formats and codecs... If footage has been shot in a LOG Space - it 'could' 'can' 'will' make sense to apply either an inverse of that particular log or directly operate on that image in Log-Space... It is diff. to explain without showing it off on a screen to someone without programming Experience... But in a nutshell - when applying a simple 'gain' to the vectors (RGB Channels) higher numbers (Pixel Values) will be more influenced, relatively, by that gain than lower numbers... When using a gamma function the closer any given number is to 0 or 1, the less the influence of the gamma function. So if you apply gamma to footage residing in a log space you will most likely affect the overall.

I know it seems complicated, but in reality it is not... Speedgrade has to deal with so much different footage, and has but one set of sliders, doing offset, gamma and gain. For those controls to work as intended, one would need 'stretch' the image to his advantage, so that gain affects the particular area of interest.. For instance... There is no such thing as a real offset. An offset can be achieve in several ways... (Try this yourself in Speedgrade) Click the plus button in the layers palette and load up the fxInversion... Invert ALL channels. Now duplicate the fxInversion layer.. When both layers are inverting you won't see the actual result... Now do this... Create a Primary Layer and move it, in between the two inversion layers. Now adjust the gain slider of the primary. The effect is an offset or Blacklevel or whatever you wanna call it.. The function is ---- 1.0 - theImage.rgb (This will invert the image and make the blacks white and vice versa... Then you apply gain to that results... --- theImage.rgb * 1.5 (Multiplication has greater effects on higher numbers the blacks, that are now whites will increase... After this, we re-invert the image so that the blacks (now whites) become black again.. 1.0 - theImage.rgb.... Programmatically, one would optimize the algorithm to look something like this    1.0-(1.0-(theImage.rgb*1.5)) - but above serves the explanation better. To take it even further, to affect certain areas of the blacks more than others, one would apply a power function to the above algorithm and you would then have a slider often referred to as a Pivot...

I hope my attempt to explain the matter was not too weird !

@reddeercity - not sure who you are disagreeing with but an underexposed image, converted to log without first adjusting exposure when it's still raw, will still be under exposed after conversion and the image will exhibit more noise as a consequence of adding offset/gain. Correct exposure is of course fundamental to achieving the best SNR and usable dynamic range. Log is not a fix for underexposure.

From what I was understanding, he meant that ANY imperfection in the image will be amplified by the application of the Log Curve. Which is true. There is NO... ONE log curve, for all images. This 'beloved' curve is totally dependent on exposure, weather conditions, specular highlights, fog etc etc etc.... with RAW... USE THE GAMMA, GAIN, OFFSET, LIFT or whatever exotic names your sliders are carrying, to get the image developed...  Using a static LOG-Curve is a compromise and the better the know-how the better the result. ARRI is one company which Curves', Spaces' (whatever you wanna dub them) are great. Could one get better results without them... YES... IF he had the right knowledge of how to develop the images.

RAW is like negatives... You need a good developing-Lab to get good results.

@CF - Thanks for your post :)

You seize on one word but neglect to mention several beneficial reasons for converting raw to Log. Not least of which is storage, archiving and efficiency of workflow.

Applying a logarithmic curve to an image does NOT, as above implies, convert RAW to Log. The image is STILL RAW, it is just being 'lifted' / 'Compressed' into a diff. gamma space.

This is what I mean, all this false word-mangling - to confuse a subject which at this present moment is about THE most confused topic on the web... (Next to how to keep a retina display clean)....

A REAL great advantage of a LOG Curve is when debayering is done In-Camera.... Before 'Converting' RAW to a Codec or 'Baking in' the linearization curve. When working with RAW files, it is pointless to use any ONE standard linearization curve (Log). It is VERY limiting, in fact. It would be like trying to apply ONE color-correction to each and every other clip. Which any colorist would know would be non-sense.

I LOVE working with RAW, as I don't have to work against any LOG Curve previously applied to the image. And I ALWAYS start with the linear representation of the image. Then I'll apply gamma to that. And to imply that applying an Rec709 workspace-LUT to a RAW-image will make it look like 'This and That' and adhere to this or that standard, is simply put; Wrong. After 'Putting' something into another 'Space' does NOT imply NOT having to further apply gamma, gain, offset etc. to that particular image... Gamma IS a logarithmic curve or function if you will...

When shooting RAW - the Canon Camera does NOT apply ANY Linearization Curve to the image. Hence RAW.... When shooting H.264 is DOES apply a curve to the image. And in THIS case of in-cam-debayering, the LOG Curve becomes important... CineStyle was a GREAT example of that. Technicolor KNOW what they are doing. But it would be UTTERLY non-sense to shoot RAW and then i.e. in Lightroom apply the Cinestyle LOG Space to the RAW-image. When shooting RAW, you HAVE to realize that you have the FULL DNA of the image-data, RIGHT THERE in the palm of your hands with all its might at your disposal. Simply loading a LUT with a generic LOG-Curve and apply that to each image, would be limiting yourself in EVERY regard.

Understanding RAW and how to develop it, is paramount for anyone shooting it. RAW is wonderful and just as wonderfully misunderstood and therefor, easy to make money off of.

Anyone, NOT 100% sure of what RAW is and how to handle it, should spend their good money on a good tutorial or book, rather than a LUT ;-)

Hi guys,

Please excuse the shameless plug (I hope the mods are ok with me doing this  ::) )

We just launched a new product called Cinelog which works with Adobe Camera Raw and most raw video shooting Canon cameras, plus the Digital Bolex and Blackmagic Cameras.

Full info is on our website

Unfortunately this release isn't a freebie (and yes we know there is something similar available for free) but Cinelog is true log space conversion for Magic Lantern Raw and other DNG based video and comes with a comprehensive LUT pack and guide.

If you have any questions or want sample frame conversions to test gradability let me know using the contact form.

I was very amused by this form the site: "Cinelog 2.0 is a pure, mathematical, logarithmic transformation curve"

I have never heard of a log-curve that wasn't mathematical. A gamma curve, too - is mathematical and logarithmic.
Not to mention a TRUE Log Space conversion. What is a FALSE Log Space Conversion - LOL

LOG is a super-hyped word these days, taking advantage of users' inexperience with the word and meaning of it.

Also... using a LUT to access a logarithmic boost of linear light is something that is half.way dangerous as it clips (clamps) the signal @ 0 and 1. So proceed with caution. Whereas if one would create his 'own' log space via curves in i.e. Resolve, he would not clip or clamp @ 0 and 1.

Logarithmic is utter standard in math. And NOT something out of the ordinary.

Unfortunately, when dealing with images - Logarithmic is used to generate money off of the laymen !

To get a basic understanding of Log, read this:

Not saying that logarithmic processing isn't of importance in color grading, it is... But every time you apply gamma to an image, you a basically applying a logarithmic curve to it.
Gamma is a power-function i.e. yourImage.XYZ = pow(yourImage.XYZ, 2) ; Raising yourImage.XYC(Red, Green & Blue Channels) to the 'power' of the exponent which in this case is 2.
Any value above 1 darkens the image. Lowering the exponent below 1 would basically brighten the image and 'Put it into this so-called LOG-Space... Combining multiple power functions will further influence the beloved 'Log Space' and produce diff. results.

Sorry to get grumpy on this one but I hate when standard math. is being sold off as astronomical NASA Surgery !

Being a programmer (no ML or Canon) of conscience - I can certainly tell when someone else harness that same property.
I have been using A1EX's nightly builds a long time and it is clear that he is a HIGHLY skilled and conscious programmer.

I feel completely safe with him sitting behind the steering wheel !

Bypassing safety to rid errors is NOT safe and should (IMO) not be available for DL without a CLEAR statement of such.

The ML-Project is about the most beautiful thing which has happened to the CPU world. Skilled technicians supplying free and HIGHLY useful code... This is NOT happening very often.

Raw Video Postprocessing / Re: The CinemaDNG Discussion (raw2cdng)
« on: April 15, 2014, 10:31:52 PM »
The app opens, I then proceed to drag in a .RAW file... I click convert, the filename turns RED and the app crashes with below log

Here is my Crashlog:

  Problem Event Name:   CLR20r3
  Problem Signature 01:   raw2cdng.
  Problem Signature 02:
  Problem Signature 03:   532cb395
  Problem Signature 04:   raw2cdng
  Problem Signature 05:
  Problem Signature 06:   532cb395
  Problem Signature 07:   e1
  Problem Signature 08:   352
  Problem Signature 09:   System.NullReferenceException
  OS Version:   6.1.7601.
  Locale ID:   1033
  Additional Information 1:   0a9e
  Additional Information 2:   0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789
  Additional Information 3:   0a9e
  Additional Information 4:   0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789

It's a Windows tool.

According to their site, it is for Mac.. It runs here, without the features, but acts more erratic than any code I have ever seen on OS X.
$999 for something Speedgrade does in blink....

Overpriced - if you ask me !

On Mac I can neither import .RAW .MLV PR4444 --- what good is this app for ??????????????

Come to think of it, I don't think using it with CineForm would benefit us much, because we already have so much control over everything already in terms of the matrix and curves. But if you want to look more, here's a good explanation.

The link to that site is weird. The contents as well. The guys providing it can't even get the download straight... Also - he states that a camera sensor has an RGB sensor ;-)))))
Weird weird weird

mac users are minority we always read before we download.

use to be a win user for a long long time,
an IT man acutely and a programer.
So yes, people should read what they are downloading.

I love mlrawViewer it is the best thing that happened to raw on ml.

Yes, this app is fantastic !!!! Best ML RAW Converter to date !!! And gets the cDNGs right, WB-Wise, unlike RAWMagic which does not !

Cliphouse by Pomfort is great but what really beats me in that app, is that they 'left out' export to cinemaDNG !!! PR4444 is great but still truncates 2 bits off the 14 bit RAWs coming off the camera.... But once/if they implement that feature, the app is fantastic !

This app is highly dangerous to use....

I used the option 'Delete Source Files" under 'Convert Option'

I then hit convert.... What the app did:

It deleted my source files and converted NOTHING...


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