Messages

I read about (but didn't try) an HDMI to USB clone capture card recently that sounded interesting. https://www.diyphotography.net/convert-any-android-phone-into-an-hdmi-monitor

And BTW I did have good luck with the EOS webcam utility beta for doing a Zoom call on my 5D3 (I downloaded the one for the 5D4 and used it on a Mac). It was nice to use a wide angle lens. I don't know if you can get the ML overlays to come up though.

Hi larioso,
There is a way to do something similar in the crop_rec_4k_mlv_snd build on the Experiments download page.  There is a a setting on the Raw video Rec trigger setting that allows a frame to be saved with a half shutter press and the output is an mlv file.  The half press saves an already captured frame from the buffer.  I'm using it to digitize old family movies and it works great for my application.  I have a 5d3, this might work on other models but I haven't tried them.   Have a look at these 2 posts for additional details. 

Mike

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=19300.msg214330#msg214330

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=19300.msg190885#msg190885

@timbytheriver, did you try setting a higher resolution crop mode then exit and return to live view before returing to your preferred crop mode?  Sometimes that works for me.  Also try a 24 fps mode in the canon menu if you don't already have that set.

@a1ex - Its a dream come true as it is, if you do find time to work on it I would love to give it a try!

I'd expect the frame rate to go up to about 40 FPS in 2.5K according to my theory about FPS timers (3596->2560 => timer A 518->388), but for some reason I couldn't achieve that in practice, last time I tried.

I'll do some testing and let you know.

Mike

Using crop_rec_4k to digitize movie film - test results

My movie digitization machine came off the back burner recently and was fitted with a hall sensor for reliable half press triggering (each 1/2 press captures 1 frame into an mlv file).  Here are the long overdue test results.  It works great!  I have been running the projector at 10 fps without any blurred frames in the 3k crop mode at 2560 x 1920 14 bits lossless continuous recording on a 5D3 1.1.3.  Magic Lantern crop_rec_4k is amazing software for this purpose.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=184kg_8hzHTJwUDwKXIsQlGjavjSka6dy

While the resolution may seem higher than needed for 16mm movie films, I have found that it's much easier to crop off the extra pixels in post rather than trying to make fine adjustments to the camera position during capture.  Also, different movie cameras mask the image area differently with some movie cameras having image area running out to, and sometimes, beyond the film sprocket holes.  I used a file on the film mask in my projector so I can record almost to the edge of the film.

a few raw frames which are h and v flipped
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GLMwmbsmOTAPqvqUHhfwDQg2TI9QxLPz

Timing between ML the projector film advance is the key to avoiding blurred frames. Running a capture and then looking through a few thousand frames to check for frames with blurs was not efficient so I set up a test to capture the projector main shaft position when ML captures the frame from the buffer.

example blurred frame
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1k-NNk0ZmYOVdCzdq45So0YJ3f1K7sMsD

Here is a great video about how a projector works, it may help with understanding my test video below.

How a Film Projector Works by the engineerguy
https://youtu.be/En__V0oEJsU

Running the projector at about 1/2 the Canon camera frame rate seems to be the most reliable to avoid catching the frame while the film is advancing.  The film advances within about 1/8 of a turn of the main shaft.  My projector shutter has been removed so I have the other 7/8 of a turn to capture the frame at a standstill.  I timed the hall sensor activation so it activates just before the film advances since the half shutter activation captures a frame already in the camera buffer.  Here's the video, hopefully, it makes sense!

https://vimeo.com/327622574

I find it amazing that the half-press triggering at 20fps works.  I ran a previous test in 3k crop mode at 2560 x 1920 14 bits lossless for 6000 frames (the exact number expected) but there were lots of blurred frames.

On one hand, the 3x3 pixel binning at 48fps looks very workable though the lens would need a lot more extension tubes which will complicate things.  The more macro magnification the harder it is to set and maintain focus due to even more shallow depth of field.     

Running at 10 FPS is more than enough for my project, that said, running at full projector speed of 18 to about 24fps would benefit other projects like this since the projector drive would not need to be re-worked, which is a time-consuming task.

If there are any setting that I could change to get the 3k crop mode at 2560 x 1920 14 bits lossless to run at a higher fps please make a suggestion.  I have tried FPS override, it crashes if I change to higher frame rates.

I captured a film through the projector this weekend as an example.  The mlv file was converted to an image sequence then globally graded and sharpened in Davinci Resolve.  This reel was shot by my Grandfather during the 1969 United States Grand Prix at Watkins Glen.

https://vimeo.com/327447552

Hello kamranjon
I have built a system that uses the crop_rec_4k build from the experiments page to capture film frames into high resolution MLV files. The main advantage is speed.  I have captured 16mm film at 12 frames per second with a 5d3 so far and I think full projector speed is possible with some further tuning (at less than full sensor resolution).  You can search my previous posts for the details. 

Several other list members have also built systems for movie digitization based on ML so search the forum to learn about them, and also search for keyword telecine.  Good luck with your project!

Hello Aileron!
The short answer is that I don't think your camera can be synced to the projector with Canon or ML settings.  Mostly because the projector speed is not as precise or consistent as your digital camera.  The banding is most likely the projector shutter partly blocking the frame when the exposure is made in your camera.  The best video I have found to explain the projector operation is by the engineerguy you can check it out here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En__V0oEJsU

Thank you Walter Schulz for mentioning my project!  There are a couple more forum members that have built projects working along the same lines as mine.  I have not gotten back to my projector in a while, I still plan to and to post additional details on how and why I built it the way I did.  I also have a good 8MM/ Super 8 projector still to build for ML movie capture. 

If you only have a few film reels and you already have preview copies made you might consider looking for a hi-quality transfer service since a build like I did is time-consuming. If you search my previous posts there are some notes on setting up the 5D3 for frame by frame capture.  The biggest change that I need to make on my machine is to replace the reed switch trigger (not easy to get working right) with a hall sensor.  Good luck!
 
Mike

What did you find more usable, and best for your type of work, 3.5k with 1320 vertical resolution, or 3k with 1728 vertical res, which is more close to 16:9?

@banertop
Update on 3072x1920, in 3K 1:1 crop mode then RAW video and press Q, if I change the aspect ratio to 1.2:1 or 3:2 (maybe other taller ratios) I can then use the joystick RH to increase resolution all the way to 3072x1920 and that holds through exit and reopen live view and camera off and on.  Thats a lot of data so you may only get a few seconds of great looking recording before the buffers are full and recording auto stops, there is an estimation on the bottom of the ML movie menu.

I'm using the crop mode with 1 frame half press trigger for a home movie digitization project so I haven't really used the regular video mode very much.  If you loaded the MLV play module you can play the files in camera for a quick check.  After you have stopped the recording open the ML menu go to Movie then RAW video and press Q.  Scroll down to playback where your MLV filename should show up, and press set to start playback.

But still dont understand why 48p, 50p and 60p dont work for me and why i can not find the way to increase vertical resolution to 3072x1728 or 3072x1920?

@banertop
The crop rec resolutions are tied to the Canon menu Movie rec. size settings.  Once you have the latest exp build installed activate 3 modules, crop_rev, mlv_lite, and mlv_play. and restart the camera.  Turn on live view and open the canon menu (menu button), in menu shoot 4 - select Movie rec. size and press set - select 1920 24 (either ALL-I or IPB).  Press set again and exit the menu, might be a good idea to exit and return to live view.

Then from the Magic Lantern menu movie menu select crop mode and press set, select 3K 1:1 and press set, select RAW video and press Q, you should be at 3072x1728.  If you don't see it then try another exit and return to from live view.   I think this mode is 24 FPS only

I'm also running 5d3 on 1.1.3 with the 128GB 1066 Lexar and I don't know how to get to 3072x1920.  I'm still on magiclantern-crop_rec_4k.2017Sep06.5D3113 but will be upgrading this week to try out the latest build.

@g3gg0 and @Walter Schulz, thanks for the kind words!  I don't think I could easily genlock the projector with a signal from the camera due to the mechanics of it - for example startup and stopping needing motor acceleration and decel, the Arduino is running the AccelStepper library to handle this currently.  But the overall goal is simplicity as a first priority. 

Primarily I'm building this to digitize my family films, but the secondary goal is to make the build easy enough so that others will adapt the ideas to fit other projectors and massively digitize the worlds family and historical films.  The barrier to having film collection digitized/scanned is often the high price.  If a DIY machine based on Magic Lantern can be(relatively)easily made and have a high-quality output then I think more people will give it a try.

To that end, the recording this weekend were working at 10FPS which is more than normal projection half speed.  If it can get to 16 to 18FPS or so then the stepper motor would not be needed, eliminating some more of the complexity.  Testing higher speeds is on the to-do list.

I don't know the age of my projector, I picked it up used from craigslist but early 50's sounds right. The operation manual first edition date was 1949.  All of my bakelite is in great shape and most of the main bakelite and metal parts look identical to the older Ampro Imperial used in the pi project.  My Super Stylist has Sound on Film built in.  I never turned on the vacuum tube amp though, none of our films have sound. The machine looks cool and sounds great when it's running too. 

If the camera frame rate is a few times higher than the projector frame rate, I don't expect any sync issues

@A1ex
After reworking the magnet glued to the projector gear and many changes to the reed switch orientation and timing, along to changing crop mode to 3k, it finally all works!  I ran 200 frame demos all weekend at the NYC World Maker Faire at the New York Hall of Science this weekend and I didn't have a single blurred frame.  That was running the projector at 10 FPS (about 600 shaft RPM), 3072 x 1728 with 14 bit lossless.

My cousin and I were presenting 2 projects as "DIY Vintage Film Restoration with a Pi or DSLR" which was a hit with both the attendees and the staff.  Joe and I are now sharing 3 editors choice blue ribbons.  Thanks for Magic Lantern! I will be writing up the details to post in the forum soon.

On my 5d3 with 1.1.3 the 3K crop mode only goes to 3072x1504.  I am trying to get to 1920 verticle.  I can get to 3075x1920 in 3K crop mode once but after making a few recordings and shutting down to remove the CF card the verticle res is lower and won't go any higher in raw video menu.  What am I forgetting to check?  I have live view at 1920 30p all I frames (or IPB).  Leaving menus, leaving live view and returning or shutting down and powering back up don't help.   Thanks!

As a starting point, try running the projector at 1 FPS

A1ex, I tested today with your recommended settings and retiming the reed switch, the 1.25fps and 2.5fps worked with no blurred frames which is great.  At 5fps  the blur returned.  I'm going to rework the trigger magnet, maybe it's holding the half press too long.  Based on the record LED the frame gets captured on half press (not release) but the delay on the release may be holding up other functions.  I'll report back after this change.

@miket

I am wondering why you are stopping down your lens so much. ...But stopping down to f16, are you not degrading the quality? I think they call it introducing "Diffraction".

Hello Kharak,
Thanks for your suggestion.  That's my understanding too about the diffraction at higher f stops.  I'm stopping down and prioritizing the increase to a depth of field since this is macro and the focal depth is only a few of MM.  It looks so far like the 5d3 with the 6 element 50mm EL Nikkor is out resolving the detail in the 16mm film.

I plan on posting details about the build here on the forum in the Tutorials and Creative Uses section once it all works for others who may want to build a system.  There are a lot of similar projects on the web that I have learned from.  The goal of the project is to minimise the hardware modifications needed so more makers will attempt build systems to digitize historical films with very high quality.

A1ex, thanks for taking the time to review my files and for these suggestions.  I was using the FPS override to get longer exposures.  That's with ISO 100 and f16 on the EL Nikkor so I have plenty of light to test with a shorter exposure at higher ISO. 

I took a guess on the positioning of the reed switch and cut slots to give adjustment through about 90 degrees of shaft rotation starting after the film stopped moving.  Another thing I can try is to move the reed sw 180 degrees so that it triggers just before the film advance.  The film advance completes in less than 90 degrees of shaft rotation leaving about 3/4 of a turn with the film stationary. 

The original mechanical shutter has been removed for a couple of reasons, first to make room to rework the lamp as the original was 1000 watts.  The second reason is the mechanical shutter rotates faster than the frame advance to reduce flicker and exposes each frame 3 times and that would leave less time for exposure with this project.

If you are interested there is a great video by the Engineer Guy - How a Film Projector Works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En__V0oEJsU

A1ex, thanks for taking a look.  I neglected to mention that I'm using a 5d3 with 1.1.3.

Can I assume the issue is not present at high frame rates?

I have not tried to capture faster than 10 frames per second, I'll give it a go and see what happens.  The projector would normally run somewhere between 15 to 24 fps when projecting a film.  Slower FPS captures may be useful to others who try this project with SD card cameras though.

1 frame half press trouble

Thank you ML devs and testers for the awesome features in the crop_rec exp builds!  I have been testing the many recent versions on a telecine machine I have been building and will exhibit next weekend at the NYC Maker Faire.  The project uses the crop_rec with half press / 1 frame only externally triggered by a movie projector synced with a reed switch to capture each frame of the film into an mlv file.

First, to get the 1 frame per half press working was confusing to me since the menu suggested that pre-recording had to be active.  When I tested with pre-recording active I was capturing many frames per half press.  By turning off pre-recording I was capturing only 1 frame per half press.  I thought it was all good. 

With more testing it seems that the frame that is being recorded has inconsistent timing, sometimes right on time and sometimes later than the half press, but before the next half press, which shows a vertical blur because the projector is advancing the film.  I have linked some test captures from a 16mm film shot at the Watkins Glen F1 race NY in 1969 and a couple of projector project photos. 

The projector is advanced by a stepper motor and programmed to turn a specific numbers of frames at a fairly precise speed.  By changing the stepper controller settings I see the same issue running it at 10FPS (200 frame files), 5FPS (100 frame file), and 2.5FPS (50 frame files) so running slower shows the same results. I have rechecked the reed sw trigger with an LED and it blinks correctly 1 time per each turn.  I have also tried many different crop resolutions, bit depths, fps override with very fps as low as 1 second, and with and without compression, the issue seems to be about the same.  That said the total number of captures frames is correct to the number of frames the steeper runs before stopping (sometimes the 10FPS captures are 1 or 2 frames short).

Is there a way to update pre-recording to add a buffer setting that only saves the newest single frame rather than a group of frames by seconds?  I have been trying to keep up with this thread since April so if I have missed something please let me know.

Thanks for your help!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxP1ckq84DqobzlqMFN6b3JhcjA

Here's a general Windows tip - When you hold shift and right click on a file or folder you can click on the menu option "Copy as path".  Then the complete path to the file or folder, surrounded by quotes, is copied to the clipboard.  In notepad or the CMD window, just Rh click and paste the path, saving a lot of typing.

@dfort - I have updated the photo links.  Thanks.

quote from: Meloware on March 02, 2017, 02:31:18 AM

If you want fast, quick and dirty, why not use a simple film chain?

Meloware, Thank you for your reply to my somewhat off topic post.  For my project I did use the canon video mode to make the initial reference copies of our 130 movies for review.  The movies are amateur shot in 8MM, 16MM, and a few Super 8, the oldest films are from the late 1930's.  My Canon video results looked about the same as from your link.  You can see a photo of the rig I used for 16mm in the photos below.

quote from: Meloware on March 02, 2017, 02:31:18 AM

My gut says 8mm is less quality than HD and that 16mm can benefit from HD

I agree in general but it also depends on the camera used to shoot the original movie.  I think the results from my cousin Joe's Pi system look really good at HD, here is an 8mm example - https://vimeo.com/178795898

quote from: Meloware on March 02, 2017, 02:31:18 AM

The speed of the system is largely limited because of the amount of data required by these raw images. If this is what you want, please help me in encouraging ML development in this direction.

The information and development within this post is fantastic.  I agree that speed and data volume are limiting factors for film transfers, and I would add that complexity of the setup is also limiting for many ML users. 

What I am asking, let's call it a feature request, is adding a frame by frame advance feature to 10 bit RAW video capture.  Instead of using FRSP, use the ML RAW video hacked even further so that video frame advance is connected to audio remote shot or half press on the shutter allowing the ML video to synchronize with the projector.  I'm not a programmer and I can't say if this is even possible, to pause the ML RAW video frame rate timers and wait for external triggers to advance one frame.

If external clocking of video is possible then the capture speed might be much faster and the 10 bit video much smaller in file size for easier post production.  I think there are several other benefits to this method.  The crop mode video helps to solve the magnification issue of capturing 8mm and 16mm film onto the much larger Canon sensor.  Higher than HD vertical video resolution settings using allow cropping easily in post since alignment of the projector/camera combo during capture is only approximate. Running the movie projector a little slower than normal speed is easier than modifying the drive system for a stepper motor. Anything to simplify the process will help a larger group of users take on a home movie transfer project with their own collections.

16mm projector with 5d2.  The optics are a reversed and stripped down 50mm f1.8 Nikkor on 105mm of extension tubes. 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxP1ckq84DqoUERUX0ozQTV5WXc

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxP1ckq84DqoRUJLLTZBbndWYWs

For the 8mm projector rig I used the reversed 50mm f1.8 Nikkor on the front of a 200mm f4 Nikkor with a couple of extension tubes (about 5x Macro).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxP1ckq84DqoRHo3U0QtY3RrYzQ

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxP1ckq84DqoR1BHTzNLMjdnVkE 

I am very interested in using ML to transfer a collection of family films.  I have been following the 12/10 video bit thread closely and wanted to ask if the video mode frame rate can be externally clocked (not advanced by an internal timer) to accomplish the film capture.

For example - use externally clocked video mode and connect a remote release cable from the camera to a reed switch (magnetically operated).  Then a magnet is attached to a gear on the projector that rotates once per frame triggering the video frame capture then waiting for the next frame allowing precise synchronization between camera and projector.

The big advantage of external clocking combined with 10 /12 bit video mode is that film capture involves about 1k frames per minute of film for amateur gauges and about 1.5k frames per minute for professional systems.  So by combining storage savings of lower bit rates and taking video output directly into color grading apps, without intermediate processing, would be a big time savings.  Also if using video mode can allow higher frame rate 15- 24 FPS capture then the old projectors can be used for film transport without needing to modify the drive speed using some kind of mechanical reducer.

If it's possible to not require ML scripting and only a simple external switching system to capture film into high-quality ML files it will enable a larger group of users to preserve the past.  I am working with my cousin on our family film project and he built Pi powered project which works really well, you can read about it here http://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/hands-on/how-to-convert-old-film-reels-with-a-raspberry-pi  Joe and I exhibited the project at the 2016 NYC maker faire and there was a lot of interest.  Being able to use ML and the higher quality Canon sensors would be great.

If it helps - this video is a refresher on how a projector works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En__V0oEJsU

Mike

Hello,
I want to use my 5d2 to telecine capture a collection of 8mm and 16mm movie film using ML.  Is there a way in ML nightly with mlv_rec to use the shutter half press to control video frame by frame advance of the raw recording?  Then using a remote release cable and an added in projector position switch the projector and the video could stay in sync. 

Silent photo single mode can work too however my 5d2 only seems to be ready for the next frame after about 1 second.  The projector will need to be modified to run that slow.  Also there are more resolution options in mlv_rec.

Thanks,
Mike