This offer is just wrong in so many ways.
(topic split from https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9274.0)
Quote from: Walter Schulz on November 11, 2013, 09:03:05 AM
This offer is just wrong in so many ways.
Nothing like a little capitalism to help things along ;)
Quote from: Walter Schulz on November 11, 2013, 09:03:05 AM
This offer is just wrong in so many ways.
Agreed but look at other threads it's the new norm since the flood of people when RAW released...
Quote from: Walter Schulz on November 11, 2013, 09:03:05 AM
This offer is just wrong in so many ways.
The responses of devs and others to this similar offer was different:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7739.0
Quote from: Walter Schulz on November 11, 2013, 09:03:05 AM
This offer is just wrong in so many ways.
I have to disagree. Do you like working for free? We spend thousands on these cameras, and then even more thousands on gear. How come the magic lantern developers aren't worthy enough to make some money?
This offer is a way of giving back to them and adding some incentive to fixing a issue that's been raising a lot of concern. I could just wait until they provide it for free, but I think they deserve some money. I think more people should man up and put some more pledges, especially those who were whining about not being able to disable the bootFlag in other threads. Even if it's $20 or $50 bucks. It all adds up and the devs really do deserve it.
Quote from: 5D3shooter on November 11, 2013, 11:47:08 AM
I have to disagree. Do you like working for free? We spend thousands on these cameras, and then even more thousands on gear. How come the magic lantern developers aren't worthy enough to make some money?
This offer is a way of giving back to them and adding some incentive to fixing a issue that's been raising a lot of concern. I could just wait until they provide it for free, but I think they deserve some money.
I agree they deserve the money, and I explicitly do agree that people buying 5d3 can donate some to the project while the rest that can barely scrape together the $$$ for a Rebel can profit from the free availability.
However, as you can see from http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Donate they don't ask for money other than donations to the EFF, so I'd suggest an "optimized" :-) offer that includes this possibility other than an individual person.
Last not least imho it's important that this is not "payment" but a small donation to the cause - it's like with all highly qualified people working for free, paying a small amount of money can make the motivation worse because then it's underpaid while for the real value of the work you'd have to add some zeros at the end :-)
Concerning the timeline: Alex, the main dev working on the 5d3 is on vacation, as it seems until for the rest of the year.
If you really believed what you posted you would have already made donations which by the lack of the title Supporter under your screen name you haven't. I've made several any time something I've found useful was released I've donated.
I agree with Marsu42 its a devaluation of their hard work and hundreds if not thousands of man hours a few people have devoted to understand these cameras.
I also don't agree with offering some small amount of money to get your pressing issue attention... IMO thats wrong in the spirit of this type of open source project.
Quote from: Stedda on November 11, 2013, 12:11:53 PM
If you really believed what you posted you would have already made donations which by the lack of the title Supporter under your screen name you haven't. I've made several any time something I've found useful was released I've donated.
I agree with Marsu42 its a devaluation of their hard work and hundreds if not thousands of man hours a few people have devoted to understand these cameras.
I also don't agree with offering some small amount of money to get your pressing issue attention... IMO thats wrong in the spirit of this type of open source project.
I would love to donate, but I refuse to get involved in bitcoin currency. If they had a paypal, id donate immediately as they deserve money regardless. This is just an incentive to get the bootflag issue fixed as many people have been asking for months with no answers. I personally would continue using the bootflag so I can shoot raw anyway, but I want options. I don't look at it like opening Pandora's box or something like that, I doubt the devs will become money hungry or something. This is just an incentive. If $300 is a small amount to you maybe you can pledge an extra 1000??
As far as where the money goes, that's the discretion of the dev that can come through on this.
If Alex is the only one who can tend to this and he's gone, then we may have to wait till he comes back, but I'll wait to hear something first.
Oh and one other thing..MY pressing issue?? This is a lot of people's issue, go read through the forum. And I'm the one who decided to put up $200 bucks, and only one other guy is chipping in so far. I would think that's a pretty nice gesture. Don't be a hater.
Quote from: 5D3shooter on November 11, 2013, 02:04:00 PMOh and one other thing..MY pressing issue?? This is a lot of people's issue, go read through the forum. And I'm the one who decided to put up $200 bucks, and only one other guy is chipping in so far. I would think that's a pretty nice gesture. Don't be a hater.
Personally, I think it's perfectly legit to offer a bug bounty, the really fine and dialectical line here is that money as a little additional incentive is different than paying for work to be done...
... because if it comes across as the latter people adding non-monetary value to ml like patches and testing ask themselves why hard cash should be able to push something to the top of the queue, even with a fixed deadline, when all they can do is kindly ask for something to be done about things they find most pressing.
You are getting the reaction I feared you would get. It is why Plato said, of all the forms of government, democracy is the worst. ML is the Tragedy of the Commons. ML is anything you want it to be... as long as you don't expect people to work together for a common goal. Each dev works on what they want. If you question them, others reprimand you. There is NO PLAN or TIMELINE I can see, to make ML RAW stable. I don't want to stereotype, but I will. The devs are like kids saying they'll clean up their room. Talk, talk, talk. ML RAW works well enough now for a stable version to be created. No one wants to put in the time because, again, the Tragedy of the Commons. While one dev works on documentation others would work on new cool features that got compliments and recognition.
In basketball terms, most ML devs do not share the ball!
People who value teamwork are not valued and eventually leave.
The devs have exceptional hacking skills, but just as exceptionally bad social and team-work skills.
Money irritates many here because with money comes responsibility.
I found my time with ML a rich and rewarding learning experience. It seems it will end there. The Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera is now in stock and why mess with Canon cameras to get what others have professionally designed and built in a $1,000 camera?
5D3shooter, I THANK YOU for trying move ML into a more usable version, in the way you were comfortable doing.
Quote from: 5D3shooter on November 11, 2013, 02:04:00 PM
Oh and one other thing..MY pressing issue?? This is a lot of people's issue, go read through the forum. And I'm the one who decided to put up $200 bucks, and only one other guy is chipping in so far. I would think that's a pretty nice gesture. Don't be a hater.
Compare this post... http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7125.msg87502#msg87502 to all the happy people using and accepting it in this post http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=2602.0
Still think it's a lot of people? Don't be a whinner.
QuoteML is the Tragedy of the Commons.
For that to be true, the "common" resource would be the time, effort--quite literally the
lives of the developers here.
QuoteML is anything you want it to be...
What? No. You seem to be suffering from the common misconception that programming is magic that can overcome hardware limitations.
Quoteas long as you don't expect people to work together for a common goal. Each dev works on what they want.
They work together toward common goals constantly. I think by "common goal" you actually mean the specific things you want to work the way you want them to work without any sort of understanding of limitations of hardware, and the general necessity of time and effort required resolve issues that can be resolved.
QuoteThere is NO PLAN or TIMELINE I can see, to make ML RAW stable. I don't want to stereotype, but I will. The devs are like kids saying they'll clean up their room. Talk, talk, talk. ML RAW works well enough now for a stable version to be created. No one wants to put in the time because, again, the Tragedy of the Commons. While one dev works on documentation others would work on new cool features that got compliments and recognition.
http://cforbeginners.com
Get to work.
QuoteHere is my shooter's guide for the EOS-M on this forum
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8825.msg82944#msg82944
I have done a tremendous about mount research into hybrid focus pixels and have posted it. I have written scripts. Here
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7908.msg70298#msg70298
I am about to post an open-source project that fixes Pink Dots in C#
Good job!
QuoteSo back to my question, what is being done about making ML a "real world" solution to RAW video? And I don't mean new features. I mean a plan and timeline to get to a stable version.
What's being done to make ML a real world solution to Arkanoid? I don't understand why everyone doesn't drop their own petty interests and focus on my vastly more important ones.
Quote from: engardeknave on November 11, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
What's being done to make ML a real world solution to Arkanoid? I don't understand why everyone doesn't drop their own petty interests and focus on my vastly more important ones.
Well, that's my question. I don't believe anyone is being purposely petty. Just like most people who loot during a black-out aren't typically thievish. What I do believe, is that the current "culture" of ML is not conducive to productivity in a professional sense; that is, software delivered to the "customer" that can be depended upon to meet their requirement(s). Yes, I know everyone works for free and it's not my right to say how ML should proceed. I can only give my opinion. And my opinion is that ML is not a real-world solution to RAW video and never will be until people gather around and
1. Create some sort of mission statement (goal)
2. Create some sort of organization (committee, board, working-group)
3. Work to create a supportive environment to both the lead devs and those who do dirty work.
Are there downsides to the above? Yes. I HATE committees. We can't have a perfect world.
I'd like to see a dev take the OP up on his offer. Why, because it would show some VALUE back to the end-user! (I couldn't care less about that feature, btw). Again, my opinion, is that ML is going to remain a card-trick curiosity until it starts working for the people who want to use this technology in THEIR way.
@maxotics - sorry but I think your frustration is unwarranted in the context of Magic Lantern as it is not a commercial business. It has always been about developers who have a personal interest in developing specific features that they, themselves want or need for their own use. Thier developments are then freely shared with the rest of us. AFAIK a1ex is himself, predominantly interested in stills photography yet he was instrumental in bringing raw video capability to the cameras.
Magic Lantern as a project has made huge strides recently. Look at the website, this forum, and the actual software. All done freely, by people who develop/contribute in their own free time.
You have also contributed your time and effort to helping others of course which is commendable and appreciated but the bottom line is that Canon has not endorsed nor is involved in this project and subsequently the ML team does not have full access to the workings of the hardware needed to fully maximize the potential of Magic Lantern.
Regarding the BMPCC. Yes, it is a camera developed for a purpose BUT - No in-camera formatting or even deleting of files, On-going issues with sensor calibration, no actual raw capability (yet), poor support etc etc... the list goes on. I'm with Dave Dugdale on his suggestion - Magic Lantern should be beating down the door of Black Magic as, IMO, it could be a perfect marriage. But for now, we have something useable that is not intended to compete with custom, commercial solutions or businesses. It is only because of a few bloggers who have suggested that it is/or could that has stoked the fire. Development will continue and I'll hazard a guess that there is more interesting stuff to come to the platform but ML is basically a skunkworks and a committee will not work in that environment without seriously hindering development times.
Just my 2c ;)
Personally, I hope you hang around even if you do go the BM route ;)
Quote from: Andy600 on November 11, 2013, 06:06:18 PM
@maxotics - sorry but I think your frustration is unwarranted
Just my 2c ;)
That's the problem with all my frustrations, they're all unwarranted ;) Seriously, thanks for your 2c! I don't plan on leaving. My point is only that ML is only going to reach, in my estimate 10% of it's actual potential as a real-world solution to film-maker's needs. Does it really have anything to do with commercialism? I'm not getting paid to do what I share with ML either. But I'd like to see as many people get something good out of their EOS-M, for example, as possible. Instead of working on code or shooting I spent time on that shooter's manual because that's what users need. I don't like doing it, but I recognize that the more people who use the EOS-M, the more developers will work on it, so the irony many devs don't see is that going backwards often propels you forward.
Quote from: Andy600 on November 11, 2013, 06:06:18 PM
ML is basically a skunkworks and a committee will not work in that environment without seriously hindering development times.
That's why most development efforts that seek larger audience do both. There are trade-offs. I do believe I am not alone in this. There are many people who would rather have stability than new features. What gets developed, and how fast, is a philosophical question. What would you rather have, new features that bring on 2-5 people, or stability that brings in hundreds? So I'd put this another way, focusing only on development hinders acceptance and low acceptance ends up with loneliness and failure ;) (if I may wax poetic).
I can shoot RAW on both my 50D and EOS-M. What I can't do is point someone to a stable build, release notes and a thread of known bugs in the stable release. There are people who can do it (if properly motivated), but we all need to recognize their effort. And that brings us back to the OPs original post. He offered $200 to make the camera more useful to film-makers like himself. Most of what he got back was, again, in my book, woefully short-sighted.
For my part, I will do my best with the EOS-M. I can only hope others follow my (and others like yourself) lead at some point.
Quote from: maxotics on November 11, 2013, 02:59:47 PM
ML is the Tragedy of the Commons. ML is anything you want it to be... as long as you don't expect people to work together for a common goal. Each dev works on what they want. If you question them, others reprimand you.
I suggest you give a quote or link to give us an impression what you are talking about...
... because offhand I strongly disagree, apart from the regrettable ML/TL fork the general tone in the forum and on bitbucket is very nice, core devs just like modules devs help each other out and are considerate that this is all our spare time. Given the range of oss projects, I'd wager to say ML development is working beautifully which results in stunning features implemented across a very large range of different camera bodies in the last year.
Quote from: maxotics on November 11, 2013, 02:59:47 PM
There is NO PLAN or TIMELINE I can see, to make ML RAW stable.
I agree about the lack of timeline for a general ML 3.0 stable release, I mentioned this more than one time, the current nightly rolling release approach won't make everyone happy... setting some milestones for a ML 3.0 release would be in order.
But what is "stable" like for raw? If this means as little bugs as possible, you don't reach it by urging the devs to work together, but by as many people as possible using a beta version and reporting bugs in an efficient way. As far as I see this is what is happening right now, given the scope of this innovation and postprocessing workflow attached a final version won't appear out of thin air overnight.
Quote from: maxotics on November 11, 2013, 02:59:47 PM
Money irritates many here because with money comes responsibility.
I wouldn't want to comment why offering money generates diverse reactions, but my observation is that in the oss world this is the case almost every time (see Debian vs. Ubuntu) and the way this specific offer is handled here is very considerate - some people voice their opinion, but nobody started flaming about the offer and any dev is free to take it w/o a problem.
@Marsu42. All your comments are valid. Net-net, I think we'd like to see the same outcome.
Next you will be asking the devs to make a camera with all the functions I want. No we want. There is only so much the devs can do and as the get to the top of the hill there are less things that they can discover as they have discovered most if not all that these cameras can do. We should be donating to them for the things they have discovered. If there is more to come I am sure they will discover in their own time as they also have their lives to live. ie go out and take photos and video for themselves.
As everyone here knows, lots of people are excited about the raw capabilities ML has unleashed for the Canon cameras. In the case of the 5D3, given that almost 40,000 people have seen a single video about installing ML raw on the 5d3 (Dave Dugdale's), it's safe to say that, all in all, at least many tens of thousands of people are interested in ML raw for the 5D3.
The bootflag issue is one that concerns many if not most of those people, even many who feel they can live with it indefinitely. There's no getting around that it can affect anyone wanting to resell their 5D3: Such a person will have to either lie and hope the buyer doesn't want to use Eye-Fi cards or care about a having a normal fast wake-up in which case they may come back angry as hell, or if the seller finds someone willing to buy a 5D3 with a non-resettable bootflag (and delay, no Eye-Fi, etc.), there's a good chance they'll have to knock the price down $100 or more to sell a camera that doesn't function normally. (Which is one good reason to instead pledge $20 or $30 etc. toward our offer! :) ) I think it's also safe to say that thousands of 5D3 owners who've heard about ML raw and would love to try it out on their 5d3s will not be willing to so long as ML makes changes to the camera's normal functioning that can't be reversed.
So although it's true that I'm interested in having "my issue attended to" (the bootflag), it's far from a "petty issue," and it doesn't mean that I'm not equally or even more interested in helping these other thousands of 5D3 owners also enjoy more quickly, more easily, and with more options, wonderful raw on the 5d3. And if, in addition, A1ex or any other dev can take up this offer and from their perspective come out ahead, that would be great too!
I hope some other people will start adding, even small amounts, to the $300 we have on offer so far.
Quote from: Marsu42 on November 11, 2013, 10:12:20 PM
... and b) to get to know why this is working on digic4-based cameras but not on 5d3/6d: If it's not for the lack of trying
How many devs have enough knowledge/experience to weigh in on this issue? From my end, I can only see A1ex, 1% and g3gg0. Alex seems to be taking a break (a very, very serious development IMHO). g3gg0 seems dedicated to MLV. Then there is 1%. Who else has a reasonable chance of fixing this? I don't follow the 5D3, so sorry if I don't know who the other devs are.
Quote from: maxotics on November 11, 2013, 10:52:21 PM
How many devs have enough knowledge/experience to weigh in on this issue? From my end, I can only see A1ex, 1% and g3gg0. Alex seems to be taking a break (a very, very serious development IMHO). g3gg0 seems dedicated to MLV. Then there is 1%. Who else has a reasonable chance of fixing this? I don't follow the 5D3, so sorry if I don't know who the other devs are.
here's a list of ML contributors sorted by most commits
zeus:magic-lantern david$ hg log --template "{author|person}\n" | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr
3462 alex
2629 a1ex
570 g3gg0
430 hudson
313 Giovanni Condello
231 nanomad
178 scrax
173 miyake_t
146 Trammell Hudson
144 Coutts
106 pravdomil
86 Giovanni C
74 Antony Pavlov
67 jplxpto
39 Zsolt Sz. Sztupak
31 Pelican
30 Pawel Pluciennik
29 Marsu42
28 Nanomad
26 meeok
24 GregoryO
22 Audionut
20 [0xAF]
19 marekk17
16 Sticks
16 Gr3g01
15 cbob
15 David Milligan
13 ubbut
10 indiana arm
10 TheUnkn0wn
10 Mathew Kelly
10 Jarno Paananen
9 Rob Kramer
8 minimimi
7 w01f <w01f>
7 coutts
7 Sven Killig
6 ppluciennik
5 1p
4 sonic74
4 mini mimi
4 escho
4 Roald Frederickx
4 Diego Elio Pettenò
3 sc1ence
3 dmilligan
3 Edgar Scholz
2 theunkn0wn
2 sodapopodalaigh <sodapopodalaigh>
2 leigh_tuck <leigh_tuck>
2 housebox
2 dlrpgmsvc
2 Takashi Miyake
2 Piers Goodhew
2 Márton M
2 Michael Angle
2 C:\Users\USER\AppData\Roaming\The Bat! Pwd
2 600Dplus
1 v8rrc
1 swinxx reno
1 rufustfirefly
1 niklasRde
1 hipescho
1 a_d_
1 [0xAF] Stanislav Lechev
1 YMP
1 Vincent Olivier
1 Thomas Saunders
1 Stanislav [0xAF] Lechev
1 Stanislav Lechev
1 Simon Dibbern
1 Miguel Brito
1 David Hessel <bnvm>
1 Chris Ball
Quote from: dmilligan on November 11, 2013, 11:12:11 PM
here's a list of ML contributors sorted by most commits...
Thanks very much for taking the time to post the list. Is A1ex and Alex the same person? If so, then his taking a break is going to be felt! I take it 1% isn't on list because he is running separate fork (another issue I know). Am I totally off-base in thinking ML dev may slow down to a crawl without Alex?
Quote from: Stedda on November 11, 2013, 03:16:33 PM
Compare this post... http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7125.msg87502#msg87502 to all the happy people using and accepting it in this post http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=2602.0
Still think it's a lot of people? Don't be a whinner.
You know, there are probably a lot of people out there that are using the nightly builds that don't post on the forum. Like mva said, there are 10s of thousands of views on ML RAW tutorial videos, you think we just all watched it over and over again?
But anyway, it's easy to rationalize why it's acceptable considering the benefits that overshadow the consequences. I was one of those rationalizers. You can see my post where I was telling some people that they were making a big deal about nothing, and that the benefits are worth it—rationalizing. But then I started to think more about it, and changed my mind. This is like getting a tattoo, it's permanent. That's a big commitment to make, and I really would like the ability to remove it if I wish.
I'm not asking for a stable version with no bugs, just a simple uninstaller. It brings comfort to know that it's removable, unlike the fellow who tattooed his x-gf's name across his chest. Sorry for the dumb analogy, but so far this boot flag is a permanent modification.
The money I offered is just an incentive, they don't have to take me up on it and no one is going to force them. I know this is open source, but like others have mentioned only a few have the knowledge to address this issue, and I want them to think about it a little bit more and possibly come to a solution, sooner than later. I will happily extend the deadline if Alex is going to be gone a while. I don't want it to seem like I'm saying "DO THIS, NOW!!" I simply just want it to stop being put off month after month, like its been.
Quote from: maxotics on November 12, 2013, 12:02:52 AMAm I totally off-base in thinking ML dev may slow down to a crawl without Alex?
Yes, you are - that's why I asked him not to get hit by a bus while on vacation :->
I don't think people not looking at the commits or this forum realize how much hinges on him - next to g3gg0 who does great low-level and reverse engineering alex is the one person who implements all the ideas, and this is a very professional manner and great code quality.
Quote from: maxotics on November 11, 2013, 06:58:06 PM
That's why most development efforts that seek larger audience do both. There are trade-offs. I do believe I am not alone in this. There are many people who would rather have stability than new features. What gets developed, and how fast, is a philosophical question. What would you rather have, new features that bring on 2-5 people, or stability that brings in hundreds? So I'd put this another way, focusing only on development hinders acceptance and low acceptance ends up with loneliness and failure ;) (if I may wax poetic).
I read this thread and shake my head a lot. My background, I'm one of the lead developers on the Nikon hacking effort, so similar to this project (no where near as advanced, ML is amazing), but this is not my community, so I feel free to speak, as a developer, without offending "my peoples"
Now I've started to write, I not sure what my key message is.
Maybe as a developer in my day job, where I do "boring" stuff to make the product stable verse shinny new features, to grown market share, and make sure customers have working systems to achieve their goals, etc etc, this is how you do commercial systems. It's a job.
ML for me would be a creative outlet (that's what the Nikon stuff is). Just like photography is a creative outlet. Working out how the camera works, how you can twist it, what you can make it do, that's all fun. If it's a grind, chore, boring, I might as well hang out with my wife/children, go for a mountain bike ride, or just play xbox.
Sure there are people writing manuals, because they feel it's a "good thing", we have manual writers at work also, sounds like a job to me.
I have personal dept to the other developers who worked stuff out for me, or spent the time keeping the site hosted, but the people who just turn up and don't read the forum and ask the same question over and over. Strangely I don't care for them. That right I don't care for the users of my camera hacking, and nor do I need to, I don't need the users to be able to alter my camera, I can do it myself. Yes that's arrogant, but then I can do what they can't. They probably can do stuff I can, and I only have so my life to do anything in.
I get people would like more stable products, pay for them. And by that I mean buy an off the shelf one that works, and is supported (and cost the earth). If people want to pay for my day time verse my free time, then it would honestly be cheaper to by an off the self product, than custom code from me, that's why we standardise, to lower costs.
I love metaphors, so here's a real world meta example:
At work people grow fruit on trees at home, and then bring surplus to work and put then in the lunch room, with signs that say "help your self - name" so you can thank them. Sometime I look at the fruit and think hmmm it not really how I like the fruit (maybe too spotty skin or something like that), but the point is a walk on. If I want fruit I buy it from the shops (and I do buy a lot of fruit) but what I don't do it suggest to my work colleges that I really think they should spend more time picking bugs off their tress so the fruit looks better, because that's really how I'd need it to look before I'll eat it.
Nor to I offer $1 if to motivate then to spend 30 hours tending their trees.
Because I get it's free, and I don't have to take the fruit it I don't like it enough.
The reason my colleges bring the fruit in is so maybe it's not wasted, maybe someone will find value in it.
The coding meaning is: I can hack my camera in private just fine, but making it public I can sharing my findings with other hackers, and we can save each other time, and discover more fun stuff.
Oh and people how cannot hack might find what I've done useful. Maybe what we find will change the camera manufacturers view, on what should be in/out of the product, but nether of these are
my goal.
- Simeon Pilgrim
Simeon, I am happy you have been able to escape those Nikon fascists and speak freely here in the ML forum :) (JUST JOKING!).
Seriously, I was not arguing that developers should "pick the bugs off their fruit". Only that, to continue that analogy, you may get sick of watching your co-workers start ignoring your fruit and never see people enjoy your garden as much as they could, if you put in a little bug-picking effort. Yes, in the beginning of any hacking effort, you really can't worry about user happiness. It should be enough that you enjoy it, and the few who share your interests.
But I believe, just an opinion, that ML has got to the point where its "coolness" is wearing off. Again, no reason a developer should stop doing what they enjoy, even if only one person is following them.
I don't believe offering money for a feature is in any way disrespectful or wrong. Devs don't have to take it up. As Gibrain said, "Work is love made visible". I believe the OP was expressing his love for ML in that way.
Again, and again, and again, It's a trade-off. You may say you don't care if someone is following your Nikon work, let's say. And you probably don't. But you may care in the future, I am only pointing out that possibility--for whatever reason.
Finally, we rarely do something because we think of it out of thin air. Most hacking is a reaction to some cool thing that CAN be done, but isn't. Like RAW video from Canon cameras. Where did we get that idea? From people using Alexa and Red cameras, and such, which were borne of similar hackers with DSRL electronics.
So hacking these cameras is partly social, though it doesn't seem like it. Hackers may deny it, but I believe all hackers hack partly because they know it will please/impress others. So where does the private challenge end and the social need begin? Do we hack just enough to show it can be done, or do we hack enough so that some can use it on a professional shoot? Or do we hack to get thanks on the forum?
No man is an island.
Quoteyou may get sick of watching your co-workers start ignoring your fruit and never see people enjoy your garden as much as they could, if you put in a little bug-picking effort
Because this thread began with a developer complaining that nobody is downloading Magic Lantern.
QuoteI believe, just an opinion, that ML has got to the point where its "coolness" is wearing off
I believe that tits are no longer appreciated by men. Just an opinion.
You have a social need to make this thing I want.
Quote from: engardeknave on November 14, 2013, 07:20:29 AM
I believe that tits are no longer appreciated by men. Just an opinion.
I don't think there is a way to make this point more effectively. I applaud your methods.
Simeon. Thanks for your comment. Nice to hear a developpers side. Really helps me appreciate all the effort even more. I guess professionals in every line of work rather get paid in full or do things for fun, than working for peanuts. I know I do.
As much as I like both new features and stability, for production work I rely on a build that hasn't failed me once. What's there to complain? The other option would be to buy an Arri Alexa.
Quote from: maxotics on November 14, 2013, 04:27:37 AM
Simeon, I am happy you have been able to escape those Nikon fascists and speak freely here in the ML forum :) (JUST JOKING!).
Thanks, all those Nikon fan-boys, so tiring... ;-)
Quote from: maxotics on November 14, 2013, 04:27:37 AMSeriously, I was not arguing that developers should "pick the bugs off their fruit". Only that, to continue that analogy, you may get sick of watching your co-workers start ignoring your fruit and never see people enjoy your garden as much as they could, if you put in a little bug-picking effort. Yes, in the beginning of any hacking effort, you really can't worry about user happiness. It should be enough that you enjoy it, and the few who share your interests.
But I believe, just an opinion, that ML has got to the point where its "coolness" is wearing off. Again, no reason a developer should stop doing what they enjoy, even if only one person is following them.
I don't believe offering money for a feature is in any way disrespectful or wrong. Devs don't have to take it up. As Gibrain said, "Work is love made visible". I believe the OP was expressing his love for ML in that way.
Again, and again, and again, It's a trade-off. You may say you don't care if someone is following your Nikon work, let's say. And you probably don't. But you may care in the future, I am only pointing out that possibility--for whatever reason.
Finally, we rarely do something because we think of it out of thin air. Most hacking is a reaction to some cool thing that CAN be done, but isn't. Like RAW video from Canon cameras. Where did we get that idea? From people using Alexa and Red cameras, and such, which were borne of similar hackers with DSRL electronics.
So hacking these cameras is partly social, though it doesn't seem like it. Hackers may deny it, but I believe all hackers hack partly because they know it will please/impress others. So where does the private challenge end and the social need begin? Do we hack just enough to show it can be done, or do we hack enough so that some can use it on a professional shoot? Or do we hack to get thanks on the forum?
No man is an island.
So true, at many levels. I have no problem with paying to fix stuff, but the here $100 bucks verse 1-2 hours of "work time", make hard problems not worth it, when really extra toy money is cool. And yes I mostly hack for the peer respect (current peers and potental future peers) and yes, people saying thank you is nice.
And your correct I'm not an island, and I've gained heaps from others that have posted stuff online. But I still am careful when I go to other projects. The nikon stuff is not my first public project, but the others have been more tech related than camera's and the people are more aware of the time cost to-do verse I'd like a double cheese burger with fires, now!
So just to make sure no direct feelings hurt, I wasn't really directly ranting at you maxotics, but by the time I got to that part I was on my moral high horse.
QuoteI believe that....
that was snort out loud funny.
Quote from: SimeonPilgrim on November 14, 2013, 03:33:54 AM
My background, I'm one of the lead developers on the Nikon hacking effort, so similar to this project (no where near as advanced, ML is amazing), but this is not my community, so I feel free to speak, as a developer, without offending "my peoples"
Great to hear from you, I hope you'll have a peek around here more often - how to manage and keep together such a project doesn't depend on the camera brand, and issues like "stability vs. features", "fork or no fork" are universal to the oss world.
Quote from: maxotics on November 14, 2013, 04:27:37 AM
But I believe, just an opinion, that ML has got to the point where its "coolness" is wearing off. Again, no reason a developer should stop doing what they enjoy, even if only one person is following them.
I'm with Simeon here: the coolness is because you can code for and modify the camera yourself just for yourself, not because you add a certain product to it like using an app for your smartphone. I find ML so great because I can make the camera do what *I* want (well, most of the times I can) which results a completely different feeling when using it.
And I know my sub-mediocre coding efforts are only possible because a couple of very clever people with a lot of time have laid the foundation for it, because of this fact alone taking money for myself and not the project or EFF for coding would feel a little awkward, but that's of course just my personal view.
Concerning the enthusiasm and motivation my guess Alex (I'm keen on his opinion once he's back) feels the same like Simeon, he's really enthusiastic about what he's doing and is on vacation right now using his own creation. I have to applaud him to invest so much time into things that he doesn't really use himself because he cares for ML as a whole. Originally I thought all core devs would get some kind of money out of this, but I seem to be wrong, it's a different motivation. Of course it falls apart when writing docs because that's outright boring.
Quote from: maxotics on November 14, 2013, 04:27:37 AM
So hacking these cameras is partly social, though it doesn't seem like it. Hackers may deny it, but I believe all hackers hack partly because they know it will please/impress others. So where does the private challenge end and the social need begin? Do we hack just enough to show it can be done, or do we hack enough so that some can use it on a professional shoot? Or do we hack to get thanks on the forum? No man is an island.
Again, working on the auto_iso module I can understand Simeon - I don't mind people using it, and I feel somewhat obliged to share it because I got help from the community, and of course it's nice to get thanks and see that other people are happy using it - but basically I couldn't care less (sorry, no offense :-)), because I do it for *me* and this is where the motivation comes from. A happy smile appears on my face whenever I look at a shot I couldn't have taken without what I coded, that's the real reward.
Getting paid token money endangers this motivation, because then you're underpaid and ask yourself if packing groceries wouldn't be a better job, but I guess everyone who shoots part commercial and for fun knows this problem. A "bug bounty" like for the bootflag issue few devs really seem to care about might be an incentive, either as a donation to the EFF or maybe someone buys Alex a flash :-> so he cannot argue anymore he doesn't know anything about it. However, I would really not like to see a $$$ badge attached to every feature request from now on.
To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with offering money to fix problems. If it becomes a trend, then just make a pay-for-code forum section. Easy. But all of this nonsense about why ML needs to be polished and improved beyond whatever the people working on it are interested in doing is nothing but a collection of silly rationalizations from people who want more and can't do it themselves.
I mean, I understand this. ML makes me feel like a child sometimes with how badly I want this or that new functionality. It's almost like getting new gear for free. (And it's sad because nobody cares about the weird features I want.) But to try and pass off my own mad craving for new goodies as some sort of duty that others must serve is horrible, no matter how obsequious the praise or how much money is offered.
As a developer myself (though not yet on ML) I think SimeonPilgrim has summed it up best. Developers get involved in projects like this because it is interesting, useful and fun for them - it's rewarding. It's an ESCAPE from their day job, not an extension of it. So while offering financial rewards for features isn't a bad thing, don't expect it to have much impact. Money is not what developers are going to be here for. Any decent developer likely has or can get a well paid job anyway so a little extra cash isn't going to be much of a motivating factor for them. (Personally I find it a bit awkward and off-putting to be offered money for something like this but maybe that's just me - I still don't think there's anything wrong with the offer).
With regards to setting up committees, adding processes, setting milestones, timelines and so on... well remember I said this is an escape from a day job for many devs? What part of their day job do you think they are escaping from? :) Having said that most developers realise some of the above is a necessary evil and will generally introduce enough structure to get by. The developers who're most involved in the project need to drive this though; users badgering for it will if anything put developers off being here (again, because it becomes more like work than play). ML actually seems to be doing pretty well with a lot of the infrastructure anyway - strong code review process, quality forums, nightly builds/continuous integration, website, wiki, ... Not perfect yet but better than a lot of other OS projects I've seen. The rest will likely come with time as the project continues to grow.
Some interesting and valid points from maxotics too on the social aspect of a project like this. I agree with a lot of that too, though I suspect the social aspects still boil down to receiving an emotional "reward", much the same as writing the code does in the first place.
TL;DR - By all means offer cash but don't be surprised if it doesn't have the effect you expected.
Quote from: SimeonPilgrim on November 14, 2013, 08:59:10 AM
So true, at many levels. I have no problem with paying to fix stuff, but the here $100 bucks verse 1-2 hours of "work time", make hard problems not worth it, when really extra toy money is cool. And yes I mostly hack for the peer respect (current peers and potental future peers) and yes, people saying thank you is nice.
/sign
Quote from: engardeknave on November 14, 2013, 11:31:57 AM
To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with offering money to fix problems. If it becomes a trend, then just make a pay-for-code forum section. Easy. But all of this nonsense about why ML needs to be polished and improved beyond whatever the people working on it are interested in doing is nothing but a collection of silly rationalizations from people who want more and can't do it themselves.
Film-making is
the most team-oriented artistic endeavor. Of the 100s of people you see listed on a film's credits, which ones are the ones with "silly rationalizations" of what they need, to better accomplish their goals? Again, it's fine if the dev is only interested in saying doing an ETTR shot of a fire hydrant outside his door, but many people who come to ML have plans that require ML to fit into a team effort. And, as anyone who has worked on a film-set, of any kind, will tell you, reliability is the most important quality you can have. You can be the most genius writer, director, actor, grip, etc, but if someone forgets to charge the batteries because they were working on some new feature they thought would be useful that day you'll say, 'hey, no problem'?
I feel, there is a bit too much dev "hero-worship" on these forums. As someone who has done a lot of development I can tell you, at least for me, I was born with it. There's a photo of me taking apart all the tea-bags in the house when I was barely 4. I took apart everything. And still do. And for a while, like many of you, I thought other people were just lazy. But after the experiences of showing up to a place where someone has forgotten the batteries say, I REALLY appreciate that person who can't program but can remember, and organize, 100, to me, excruciatingly boring details. Though it has slowed me down working with such people, and is frustrating, the end work was 100x better.
The OP who posted for the fix to the camera. What do we know about him? Perhaps all he thinks about is money and he wants to maximize the value of his camera. Or maybe he is a technical dolt but has studied painting, and painted, for 12 hours a day and has a genius eye for composition. He may one day shoot the next Citizen Kane. Will it be on ML though?
To me, and just my opinion, everyone who posts or does anything helpful is on the SAME level as the devs. Again, no matter how cool a feature one of the devs may get working, if I couldn't have done it without some person's tutorial who is the one who really got me there?
What I have tried to do in these posts is explain why I am moving way from ML, and why I think others have/are doing the same. Experiments are fun by yourself, but as soon as you start to work with others, certain things don't fly. I wish they did. I really do. But experience teaches an unforgiving lesson.
Again and again again. I can only describe my experience and thinking. Everyone should do what they want with their free time. If the devs and most users enjoy things the way they are, then by all means, rock on! When I have free time and it's for fun, I'm here!
Quote from: maxotics on November 14, 2013, 03:39:15 PM
Film-making is the most team-oriented artistic endeavor. <snip> If the devs and most users enjoy things the way they are, then by all means, rock on! When I have free time and it's for fun, I'm here!
I full understand your background needs and perspective. I get that ML could also fit into your workflow if it just X, and that (guessing) it is so close, but no there.
I also agree anybody that contributes, is a equal contributor. At work we use the Belbin profiles system, and their are completer finishers, and team players, and there are team coordinators, all of which I am not, and I'm guess the core dev's are not ether. To get a big task done need teams that are balanced.
Film making, like game coding, sounds fun, I bet there is crazy competition to get the job done (and for cheap).
Quote from: SimeonPilgrim on November 16, 2013, 10:31:54 PM
I also agree anybody that contributes, is a equal contributor.
I guess we can instantly all agree on that since I have never felt any persistent hierarchy from anyone working for ML, every level and type of contribution is very welcome - coding, testing, ideas, writing.
However, with the insight of having coded some modules and patches I have to acknowledge it's probably only 2-3 currently active people who have the knowledge and time to get the difficult tasks done while the rest builds upon these efforts. For that simple reason, I'd be extra observant to what their vision is (and this includes the (non)commercial character) because what they achieve cannot be (re)paid in money, and if they loose interest or motivation the whole project is stalled.