I'm sorry for my ignorance but why 5Dm3 doesn't have any aliasing in RAW video, but all other cameras do?
Thanks
I bet it does... they just tried real hard to reduce it.
Quote from: 1% on June 07, 2013, 03:44:02 AM
I bet it does... they just tried real hard to reduce it.
I'm interested! How was this possible?
Hello All :)
With the 5D2
I would say that Aliasing in raw is minimal Compared to H264,
i thinks because the image is Sharper and cleaner
you ten to focus better & you can get away with a soft focus
where you can sharping later to minimize Aliasing.
So i was interested to see how good the Raw DNG image is, in term of scalable.
So i took 1880x854 24p DNG file import to photoshop and upscaded to 4096 x 1861
maintained the 240 dpi, 16 bit tiff, Basic White Balance & Color Correction
when you play the video in the small screen you will notice moire & aliasing
But thats only in the small player go to full screen and there is no
moire & aliasing.
The Original file on the image quality tab is the 4K mp4 i uploaded .
Quote from: reddeercity on June 07, 2013, 04:40:58 AM
Hello All :)
With the 5D2
I would say that Aliasing in raw is minimal Compared to H264,
i thinks because the image is Sharper and cleaner
you ten to focus better & you can get away with a soft focus
where you can sharping later to minimize Aliasing.
So i was interested to see how good the Raw DNG image is, in term of scalable.
So i took 1880x854 24p DNG file import to photoshop and upscaded to 4096 x 1861
maintained the 240 dpi, 16 bit tiff, Basic White Balance & Color Correction
when you play the video in the small screen you will notice moire & aliasing
But thats only in the small player go to full screen and there is no
moire & aliasing.
The Original file on the image quality tab is the 4K mp4 i uploaded .
I hate to say it dude but the moire and aliasing on that shot is very obvious to me. On the fence between the trees on the left, color patterns all over the distant tree and all the weird coloring on the darker of the two rooftops.
Sorry man - don't mean to be negative, just saying what I see.
The moiré on the mk2 is killing me. I'm having a blast playing around with it, but unless it miraculously gets improved in a future ML build (which I know is probably beyond the scope of what's technically possible), I'd have a hard time shooting anything serious on this hack with anything other than a mk3. I can see aliasing everywhere in a lot of my mk2 stuff. And I like things like deep-focus landscapes too.
Aliasing can't be removed in post without breaking the Nyquist theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem) ;)
(which is on the same level as breaking physics laws)
Quote from: Oedipax on June 07, 2013, 07:48:58 AM
The moiré on the mk2 is killing me. I'm having a blast playing around with it, but unless it miraculously gets improved in a future ML build (which I know is probably beyond the scope of what's technically possible), I'd have a hard time shooting anything serious on this hack with anything other than a mk3. I can see aliasing everywhere in a lot of my mk2 stuff. And I like things like deep-focus landscapes too.
So you have to get VAF-5D2b filter, it seem it makes a great job in reducing aliasing and moire. I am thinking of buying one for 6D.
Yeah I'm running into a bunch of Aliasing issues on the 60D but I think it only looks worse than normal h264 because the detail level is higher. Tomorrow I might be on the search for some post plugins to help reduce it but for now the trade off of shooting RAW is much better. Even my Big Sur video on the MarkIII had some aliasing on the opening bridge shot but then I think that's cause the sharpness was set to 25 in Lightroom.
I don't quite know whats going on with that last shot reddercity ???, but here's my first ML raw test:
The Aliasing and Moire are GONE!
https://vimeo.com/67864808
This was shot on the 5D3, handheld at 1920x1080. It's 6 sec long. The RAW image is stunning. The RAW codec, (or lack of) has eliminated
most, if not all of the aliasing and moire present in the building. The first 3 secs are H264, the last 3 are RAW. Notice the
windows. RAW took all the false coloring out of the windows and looks almost futuristic. On the side of the bldg, aliasing was going on, and with the RAW-- it's not even there. Just amazing. The latitude, sharpness-- Thanks Magic Lantern Team!! Can't wait to learn the 3x crop and make something better than a test!
I think the secret to avoid it would be while shooting. I got better results with the 5D2 in terms of aliasing and moire using a ND (0.9) and a Pola together in camera, and avoid super sharp lenses like Zeiss and Canon EF. A very good choice are the Leicas R, quite sharp but also soft/creamy, also vintage lenses not sharp like Meyer's and Jena east German ones. Also notice to get nice results using wide apertures, a little bit soft but less noticiable aliasing, cause it is still there :-[
Quote from: Nachelsoul on June 07, 2013, 09:23:19 AM
I think the secret to avoid it would be while shooting. I got better results with the 5D2 in terms of aliasing and moire using a ND (0.9) and a Pola together in camera, and avoid super sharp lenses like Zeiss and Canon EF. A very good choice are the Leicas R, quite sharp but also soft/creamy, also vintage lenses not sharp like Meyer's and Jena east German ones. Also notice to get nice results using wide apertures, a little bit soft but less noticiable aliasing, cause it is still there :-[
But what about all the money I invested in amazing Zeiss glass :P
Quote from: DerekDock on June 07, 2013, 09:42:10 AM
But what about all the money I invested in amazing Zeiss glass :P
Zeiss is the lens to go in 5D3, sure!!!!. But with the 5D2 will be worth spend some money in the Mosaic Aliasing filter. I love Zeiss and never get rid of my set, NEVER. These lenses will survive me.
I found a good solution, please take a look, try it and post your feedbacks:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6248.0
Quote from: noisyboy on June 07, 2013, 06:04:23 AM
I hate to say it dude but the moire and aliasing on that shot is very obvious to me. On the fence between the trees on the left, color patterns all over the distant tree and all the weird coloring on the darker of the two rooftops.
Sorry man - don't mean to be negative, just saying what I see.
You are over analyzing the image , you must take this
with a grain of salt. I did not take the time set up the shot
As I would in a paying Job. That being said I used my
cheapest lens , sigma 50mm f1.4 which is very soft lens
When Wide open. The Sigma dose not compare to
Canon "L" lens. And also if you would have read what I
said on the YouTube page I would only
use it as "B-roll" in a 4k project, if I new i Was going to use a 4K upscalded
images then I would shoot in a way to keep it clean.
Beside that I don't think YouTube dose a good job of coverting video content.
On my grading monitor i don't see the problem you do, some monitor are
not able to reproduce a clean sharp image from 4K
I think asus are the worst ones , I have alway had problem with them, can't
tust the image for 1 second .
I was wondering what gain of the picture quality could be achieved with 6D by using VAF-6D for raw video.
Many examples and comparisons i believe are made with some standard picture profile and increased digital sharpening to exagerate aliasing and moire to be much worse in comparison with filtered image.In real life most of us using cinestyle or similar picture style with sharpness turned all the way down to make aliasing/moire less visible. But...RAW is not using any camera settings, IMO thats why picture seems to have more aliasing and moire, especially power lines looks ugly as hell.
Could someone make such a comparison: raw original/raw with VAF filter? I can be on 5d2, probably will be the same effect as on 6D. I think there was one on YT but i beleive it was shot indoors and don't show all the effect.
Quote from: kgv5 on June 08, 2013, 01:56:17 PM
Could someone make such a comparison: raw original/raw with VAF filter? I can be on 5d2, probably will be the same effect as on 6D. I think there was one on YT but i beleive it was shot indoors and don't show all the effect.
I'm interested in this as well. It's not a small purchase to make.
I read somewhere on the site in the past few days that VAF filters are designed for the stock h.264 codec and that they are not suited to RAW. Would be nice to see comparisons on any camera though.
QuoteI read somewhere on the site in the past few days that VAF filters are designed for the stock h.264 codec and that they are not suited to RAW.
LOL. They are designed for 1080p video sampled from the entire sensor; they may be too weak for 720p and they are way too strong for crop mode video.
Quote from: Redrocks on June 09, 2013, 02:59:40 AM
I read somewhere on the site in the past few days that VAF filters are designed for the stock h.264 codec and that they are not suited to RAW. Would be nice to see comparisons on any camera though.
Well, its an optical element, not a software solution,I think it should solve most of moire and aliasing problems before picture is written to card so I have high hopes for this. I have ordered one, so we will see in a couple of weeks.
Quote from: a1ex on June 09, 2013, 08:53:33 AM
LOL. They are designed for 1080p video sampled from the entire sensor; they may be too weak for 720p and they are way too strong for crop mode video.
n
Maybe, but isn't a crop mode made out of 1920x1080? (I mean picture with 1x magnification, resolution say 1792 x something)
In 5x it records at the photo mode resolution of the sensor (1:1 crop). In 1x, the image is downsampled by 3, and the filter is designed for this downsampling factor. In 720p, the image is downsampled by 5 vertically and 3 horizontally, and that's why the filter might be a bit weak here.
Quote from: kgv5 on June 09, 2013, 09:04:14 AM
Maybe, but isn't a crop mode made out of 1920x1080? (I mean picture with 1x magnification, resolution say 1792 x something)
Think of it as, because the sensor is downsampling in a way that means certain parts of the sensor are skipped, there is a gap of a certain distance between parts of the sensor it records from.
A blurs the image an exact minimal amount, so the light that would have fell apon 'the gap' reaches the parts that are recording.
When you change how much of the sensor you are using, or using the full sensor at a different resolution, the size of the gap changes so the VAF filter will either now make your image blurry (if now less of a gap) or not work as well as intended (if more of a gap)
For what we're doing with raw, generally filming at higher resolutions with the full sensor, I would expect a vaf filter to remove aliasing at the cost of the image being blurrier than you'd like.
Quote from: a1ex on June 09, 2013, 09:17:11 AM
In 1x, the image is downsampled by 3, and the filter is designed for this downsampling factor.
That's the most important for me :)
I have found some very good examples VAF+RAW (the first one showing how much worse aliasing and moire is in RAW footage vs h264 - raw has always it's default sharpness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeA-siZRE3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99ne_fDZFGM
One of the image artifacts lumped under the heading moire/aliasing is the annoying color rainbowing that you see.
Avisynth has a filter which works wonders with this.
With the 5D3, is it possible that they are sampling from the entire sensor, rather than skipping?
So for example to make one pixel, they take an average from an entire area rather than skipping sections and reading from only one part.
Not sure what is happening here but normally if there is no skipping we should take less noise after bining pixels which is not the case according to measures on Black frames ..
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5609.msg39410#msg39410
I am having a bad case of noise that I believe is caused by aliasing. This video is shot at ISO 100 180 degree shutter, 1280x640@15 fps:
Notice on the rocks you can see some "pixie dust" noise/grain. Does anyone know the cause of this and is it possible to fix in post?
Quote from: noisyboy on June 07, 2013, 06:04:23 AM
I hate to say it dude but the moire and aliasing on that shot is very obvious to me. On the fence between the trees on the left, color patterns all over the distant tree and all the weird coloring on the darker of the two rooftops.
Sorry man - don't mean to be negative, just saying what I see.
I seen this forum thread before but I don't think I soak it in. Reddeercity Post is very vital for the point of Aliasing and Moire fears, I took a closer look at his video after reading the thread and you can see he was correct Aliasing can be seen in the small low Res window but if you open it to full screen and even more pick the 1080p or Original format option it clears up greatly for presentation (beautiful), that's scratching the surface of filming in RAW and Upscaling. Thanks again for the revisit to the thread because it help drill the option of line skipping, Moire and Aliasing problem solving into my head.
I am going to link something I found a long, long, time ago. I never tested it myself but intended to at some point. My strategy for dealing with moire is generally to avoid things that are known sources of it. :-\
http://colorbyjorg.wordpress.com/plugins/ (http://colorbyjorg.wordpress.com/plugins/)
I would like to think that it's highly effective and kills any sign of moire. I do, at least, have hope (and optimism :) ).
Quote from: mageye on June 22, 2013, 09:43:22 PM
I am going to link something I found a long, long, time ago. I never tested it myself but intended to at some point. My strategy for dealing with moire is generally to avoid things that are known sources of it. :-\
http://colorbyjorg.wordpress.com/plugins/ (http://colorbyjorg.wordpress.com/plugins/)
I would like to think that it's highly effective and kills any sign of moire. I do, at least, have hope (and optimism :) ).
Looks great, but I am on a windows system. Do you know of any similar plugins/filters for After Effects/Premiere?
I don't know of any for Windows unfortunately. I found this one a long time ago and forgot that it was a plugin for Final Cut Pro and of course that only runs on the mac.
Sorry. :(
Good example of how bad it is on the 60D!
I was able to get rid of most of the micro-moire noise by using Photo Ninja to convert to TIFF; Using the "Enhanced" demosaicing algorithm and the Noise Ninja 3.0 Color Noise reduction, which reduced the noise considerably, and then using Magic Bullet denoiser II in Premiere.
Quote from: mageye on June 22, 2013, 09:43:22 PM
I am going to link something I found a long, long, time ago. I never tested it myself but intended to at some point. My strategy for dealing with moire is generally to avoid things that are known sources of it. :-\
http://colorbyjorg.wordpress.com/plugins/ (http://colorbyjorg.wordpress.com/plugins/)
I would like to think that it's highly effective and kills any sign of moire. I do, at least, have hope (and optimism :) ).
You can achieve the same results by using Smoothkit by RE:Vision and applying a Gaussian to only the chroma. Works really well actually :)
For all of you using ACR:
for static images you can paint out moire/aliasing. apply a mask in ACR paint over the moire/aliasing infected areas (fine building structures etc.) and find the slider named "moire reduction". depending on the amount of moire apply a value of about 20 to 30 (+/-). use it carefully since it seems to blur the affected color channels and you loose a lot of saturation but not contrast, giving you a sharper yet less aliased image.
for moving images or moire all over the image just set a big paint stroke over the whole image and adjust as desired.
the effect is stunning. but you lose of course a lot of color information and the image becomes desaturated.
but at least it could be a way to solve some specific shots.
just discovered this and didn´t really test it.
Tried various AE plugins, and so far I found the best results using one pass of "Temporal" noise reduction with RE:Vision Denoise followed by a pass of Magic Bullet Denoiser.
Here you have some raw DNG's for comparing the picture with and without mosaic engineering anti aliasing / moire filter VAF-6D.
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6577.msg55134;topicseen#msg55134
Great posts, this is very helpful. I did some tests on mu 60D with and without the VAF-60D, but did not get great results with raw at lower resolutions. My ISO was very high for this quick test, and I need to repeat it with lighting to see how that might impact the tests. I did see better results the higher the resolution went, but not as good as those where I used full HD in H264 (where the AVF-60 fixed the issues super well). My test was a nasty one - a herringbone fabric, so it was 'asking for trouble'...anyway, I a happy with the AVF myself, as it is very useful on H264 for me, and I expect to get some benefit at least in raw, depending on the way I shoot. I really appreciate hearing what others see, as it helps me get a better idea what to expect, especially if I eventually change camera bodies. Thanks for the hard work.
POSTSCRIPT - I reviewed my data and found more correction than I originally saw when I looked closer. My estimation is that some subjects are easier to correct than others. I think that the VAF for each camera is only as strong as needed for what they tested for - and the 60D in raw is a LOT sharper, so maybe it could stand a stronger filter for raw work, but mine appears to help even if it is not perfect in all situations.