Magic Lantern Forum

Using Magic Lantern => Hardware and Accessories => Topic started by: LeviBetz on June 04, 2013, 02:16:54 AM

Title: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: LeviBetz on June 04, 2013, 02:16:54 AM
What do you think guys? I've found that you can buy a replacement sd card "reader" board at least for my 550D. Could we find what sort of signals the main board sends to this and then build our own board that has say, an esata plug so we can plug in little ssds rather than the Sd cards? That would theoretically turn the sd cameras into killer video machines. To bad im neither a programmer or electrical engineer :(
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on June 04, 2013, 05:21:40 AM
I've been told it's not possible, even if it was I really don't think ESATA would be the way to go. It'd make more sense to try to make it a faster card writer, because it only hits ~20mbps (is that megabit or megabyte I never know), if one could make/modify the card reader to hit ~95mbps, which the high end cards do...
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: LeviBetz on June 04, 2013, 09:03:06 AM
I suppose i feel like, if you need fast storage, go for the fastest. I mean the thing is, technically anything is possible. It just depends on how far down the signal chain the sd card module is.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on June 04, 2013, 10:49:28 AM
Yeah, but if that is the case, just buy a RED. If a different sd controller exists that is the same size that can be swapped out, then you have still a neat, sealed, functioning camera. If you have some sort of adaptor which requires the cameras guts to be hanging out with spaghetti wiring then one might as well build a camera from scratch.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: LeviBetz on June 04, 2013, 11:02:32 AM
I suppose i don't want the 550d for its size, just for it's price point. So developing a board that could be built for about $50 and enable us to shoot video that would rival cameras much much more expensive sounds pretty attractive. And if you want performance plus size, then 5D3?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: 3pointedit on June 04, 2013, 11:31:04 AM
Can't have everything for nothing I guess. If you mod the camera then it adds expense. Only mod left is to media. So small res or smaller bit depth or lower frame rate. Choose them.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: dlrpgmsvc on June 04, 2013, 01:04:42 PM
The base idea to swap the current controller with a faster one is good and feasible.

But we must face with the processor bus speed, and see if this bus speed is enough for the new speed of the new controller.

The BUS is the "highway" where all the peripheral signals go and come to and from the processor. If the speed of this bus is equal to 20mb/sec (example for the 550D, whose SD controller is limited by this speed), then there is no point to improve the SD controller speed.

If then we try to overclock the bus speed, then the processor may lose some data from the bus, so the bus and processor speed are tigthly correlated. You can overclock the processor, but then it could behave like drunk and screw up all the system, on a random base, and it can overheat and burn on the long term. So, we can only see if the bus speed can let us to improve the SD controller speed.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on June 04, 2013, 04:30:17 PM
dlrpgmsvc, you make it sound plausible.

I've managed to find a couple of pics which I've been looking at:
http://www.hansonphotodesign.com/canon-550d-repair/hB61A13E#h1dfa5a1e <-- a 550D tear-down
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SD-BOARD-PCB-ASSY-FOR-CANON-EOS-550D-REBEL-T2i-NEW-/121119790044?pt=Digital_Camera_Accessories&hash=item1c334d53dc <-- ebay link to sd controller for 550D

As I do not want to pull apart my 550D, and I have not yet bought a 2nd card controller or a 2nd 550D.
But ultimately, if it's the SD controller which can be upgraded, then that's all there is on it.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: a1ex on June 04, 2013, 04:46:18 PM
Good luck chasing the unicorn ;)
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: 1% on June 04, 2013, 06:29:14 PM
Yea, this path is fruitless, imo.. If that is the sd controller on there do you have the tools to remove/reflow/place?

No guarantees camera would recognize SD afterwards... I would see what that chip is and if a newer model is pin + command compatible. i.e. if power pins are wrong, will burn up on startup + take something else with it.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: hammermina on June 04, 2013, 08:24:10 PM
we can look at it and use octokoppler with this tools the hardware of the cam isn´t in danger.the 550d supports sdxc.the only true question is how fast is the busspeed 25 or 50..
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: hammermina on June 04, 2013, 08:25:40 PM
mabye the controller itself is set to 25...
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: hammermina on June 04, 2013, 08:45:25 PM
if we look on the memory benchmark the bus have to be more than 20. or iam wrong?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: dlrpgmsvc on June 04, 2013, 09:17:12 PM
if we look on the memory benchmark the bus have to be more than 20. or iam wrong?

Yes: on the uncachable memory benchmarks, my 550D maxes out to about 66Mb/sec ... so it is correct to think that the cpu bus speed is at least 3 times faster than the SD card controller ! If this value is not from a DMA channel, this is a true bus channel  ;)
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: dlrpgmsvc on June 04, 2013, 09:22:27 PM
we can look at it and use octokoppler with this tools the hardware of the cam isn´t in danger.the 550d supports sdxc.the only true question is how fast is the busspeed 25 or 50..

Good idea, an optocoupler can do the trick, even if it adds bulk and complexity on the Whole thing... we should however try to get as info as possible on the signals by monitoring them, before attempting any intervention...
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: dlrpgmsvc on June 04, 2013, 09:26:17 PM
I've managed to find a couple of pics which I've been looking at:
http://www.hansonphotodesign.com/canon-550d-repair/hB61A13E#h1dfa5a1e <-- a 550D tear-down
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SD-BOARD-PCB-ASSY-FOR-CANON-EOS-550D-REBEL-T2i-NEW-/121119790044?pt=Digital_Camera_Accessories&hash=item1c334d53dc <-- ebay link to sd controller for 550D

It's a start !  :)
Can you manage to read the writings on the main chip ? I cannot... ! It's important for us to identify it !
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: hammermina on June 04, 2013, 09:44:13 PM
i personely can't read this out but i have a friend who maybe can... i write him and send him the benchmarks.iam waiting on his answer.

iam reading about sd host controllers...those this can be operation in many modes.so if the mode is set to sdxc highspeed the limit of the controller is 25mb/s thats theis the case on 550d i think.but there are to more modes one up to 50mb/s and one up to 105mb/s  for the sdxc standard...



Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: dlrpgmsvc on June 04, 2013, 09:50:47 PM
i personely can't read this out but i have a friend who maybe can... i write him and send him the benchmarks.iam waiting on his answer.

iam reading about sd host controllers...those this can be operation in many modes.so if the mode is set to sdxc highspeed the limit of the controller is 25mb/s thats theis the case on 550d i think.but there are to more modes one up to 50mb/s and one up to 105mb/s  for the sdxc standard...

Very good ! The point is that, if we can dig more info about the actual controller, perhaps we can hack it phisically someway, by hardware, like you say, without replacing it with a new one...
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: hammermina on June 04, 2013, 09:52:16 PM
i will wait for his answer..and if he turn the signal to green i will buy a controller for 550d
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Chucho on June 04, 2013, 09:55:19 PM
Good luck chasing the unicorn ;)

Alex have you ever seen the movie Black Moon, chasing taking unicorn and there's even a talking rat. The only way I see in capturing the full sensor frame in a sd cameras is with some sort of SDI mod. Inside camera hijacking the data from sd bus/ribbon to a RF connector. Outside camera RF connector->video demux->HD-SDI driver->RF connector. Where is Juan Pertierra when you need him.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: hammermina on June 04, 2013, 09:55:50 PM
to get an controller software would be no big problem...
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: N/A on June 06, 2013, 05:22:48 AM
Good luck chasing the unicorn ;)
Not to mention you can kiss any remainder of a warranty you have buh-bye
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on June 06, 2013, 06:43:15 AM
Not to mention you can kiss any remainder of a warranty you have buh-bye

Warranty is a scam. Warranty only covers a bathtub period. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: keyth on June 12, 2013, 03:47:18 AM
Hi,guy an idea like on ps3 mod is a chip/controller mod in sd or cf card that bypass internal buffer? my god i'm crazy
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on June 12, 2013, 05:14:29 AM
If this even wants to get anywhere there needs to be some volunteered electronic engineers or similar.
Rather than a bunch of camera users and software users/developers. (<--Not talking about ML devs, just coders in general).
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: LeviBetz on June 12, 2013, 10:46:18 AM
That's the trouble, all the EEs probably already make enough to afford 5D3s hahahaha

Would it help to pull apart the camera and take detailed photos of the chips? And write down the numbers?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on June 15, 2013, 06:58:45 AM
Would it help to pull apart the camera and take detailed photos of the chips? And write down the numbers?

It may do LeviBetz. But I did further up in this post post links to this http://www.hansonphotodesign.com/canon-550d-repair/hB61A13E#h1dfa5a1e and then also a 550D sd card controller being sold on ebay.
I mean, pulling it apart is one way, but it's probably just safer to buy the sd card controller and go from there (see image for what the card controller is).
In that image I can't make out what the chip is on it, the IC chip or what not. Then on top of that, there are 3 different places different wires plug into. What each one is I do not know, what info the wires are sending I do not know either. Although one would obviously be power.
Regardless if I knew that information, I myself wouldn't be able to get anywhere with it :P
I'd still be interested in knowing that IC though.
But still, cheaper/safer to buy the sd controller off ebay or somewhere.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on June 17, 2013, 02:25:15 PM
So I'm under the impression that square IC is either a Power Manager or a PWM controller, or whether they're the same thing even?
It's got written on it SC901524 and then 4VWRAV, whether that 2nd line is specs about it or not?
And in research I found all various kinds of things that I will list in a table here.

550D
-PartDescripCameras Sharing
Primary DSP/CPUDigic 4 CH4-6405Digic 4500D, 50D, 5DmkII, 7D, (other canon P&S)
Power manager, PWM controllerMB39C305BGA Chip Controller1000D, 40D, 450D, 500D, 50D
SC901524Square chip on the SD controller - 4VWRAV (Freescale Semiconductor, Inc)7D
Zoom driver, OIS driver, Mirror charge driverLV84011ch forward/reverse Motor Driver IC using D-MOS FET for output stage (SANYO)7D
Insulated-gate bipolar transistor8G133Strobe flash? (TOSHIBA)1000D, 40D, 500D, 50D, (other canon P&S)
Audio/video controller, all other chips64712
AA1900???wtf google images???500D, 7D, (other canon P&S)
AK4646Stereo CODEC with MIC/SPK-AMP (AKM)5DmkII, 7D, (other canon P&S)
BU97930LCD Driver1100D
System control processor, MCUTMP19A43CDXB 1000D, 1100D, 450D, 500D
BatteryLP-E8It's a Battery
LCDACX405AKM-7I've seen in places that these are Sony
ZOOMCanon 450D mirror boxThis is the whole shutter bit with the mirror in it1000D, 450D

Magic Lantern has a spec sheet for the stereo CODEC and it looks like it has some impressive stuff in it http://wiki.magiclantern.fm/_media/ak4646.pdf

Here's a canon tear down I also came across in my ventures http://www.chipworks.com/blog/recentteardowns/2012/07/06/inside-the-canon-rebel-t4i-dslr/ which may actually answer some of these parts as well. This is 650D not 550D, although I think they contain some similar bits, however not the card controller.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: g3gg0 on June 17, 2013, 04:55:02 PM
600D detail photos: http://g3gg0.de/gallery/600D_closeup/

btw - i want a datasheet of this device.
anyone who can find out more about this device?
its not listed anywhere, just some internal lifetime lists from Analog Devices accessible from the web.
it seems its a custom chip, not disclosed anywhere. :((

i expect this to be the ADTG with a lot of CMOS readout timings and AD converter integrated.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg3gg0.de%2Fgallery%2F600D_closeup%2Fpicfolio%2Fmidnails%2FIMG_3825_corr.jpg&hash=3d80dcbbb8d3893f2fd5f63accc3dc02)
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: JohnBarlow on June 18, 2013, 01:49:59 AM
This suggests its a LQFP64 type

http://www.uscomponent.com/a/AD80246BBCZ-AD80246XBCZ.html

600D detail photos: http://g3gg0.de/gallery/600D_closeup/

btw - i want a datasheet of this device.
anyone who can find out more about this device?
its not listed anywhere, just some internal lifetime lists from Analog Devices accessible from the web.
it seems its a custom chip, not disclosed anywhere. :((

i expect this to be the ADTG with a lot of CMOS readout timings and AD converter integrated.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg3gg0.de%2Fgallery%2F600D_closeup%2Fpicfolio%2Fmidnails%2FIMG_3825_corr.jpg&hash=3d80dcbbb8d3893f2fd5f63accc3dc02)
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on June 18, 2013, 04:33:43 AM
I'd like to point out as well, each camera has a completely different SD board.
1100D looks like something from the 90's.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Can on June 27, 2013, 08:50:22 PM
Has anyone thought about using the USB port in camera to hook up to an external SSD?

You would certainly need separate power for the drive, and an SSD that would provide sufficient write speed is affordable, but would it be possible to direct the camera to write to the hard drive through the USB interface rather than the SD card?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Chucho on June 27, 2013, 09:40:59 PM
600D detail photos: http://g3gg0.de/gallery/600D_closeup/

btw - i want a datasheet of this device.
anyone who can find out more about this device?
its not listed anywhere, just some internal lifetime lists from Analog Devices accessible from the web.
it seems its a custom chip, not disclosed anywhere. :((

i expect this to be the ADTG with a lot of CMOS readout timings and AD converter integrated.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg3gg0.de%2Fgallery%2F600D_closeup%2Fpicfolio%2Fmidnails%2FIMG_3825_corr.jpg&hash=3d80dcbbb8d3893f2fd5f63accc3dc02)

I't looks like its part of the AD800/AD802 family http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD800_802.pdf


http://ystjt.en.seekic.com/product/integrated_circuits_ics/AD80246BBCZ.html
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: 1% on June 27, 2013, 10:05:11 PM
Yea, the sheet mentions NRZ.. probably another canon customization of off the shelf product.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: dlrpgmsvc on June 29, 2013, 09:57:21 AM
Has anyone thought about using the USB port in camera to hook up to an external SSD?

You would certainly need separate power for the drive, and an SSD that would provide sufficient write speed is affordable, but would it be possible to direct the camera to write to the hard drive through the USB interface rather than the SD card?
You cannot use usb because it is too slow
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: xNiNELiVES on July 04, 2013, 09:16:32 PM
Is this issue dead? I hope we can find a way...
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on July 05, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
Is this issue dead? I hope we can find a way...

Not sure what you mean by is the issue dead, it will always be an issue.
There is just no electrical hardware engineers to spend their time on it,
That's if it is even possible.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: xNiNELiVES on July 05, 2013, 05:06:26 AM
Not sure what you mean by is the issue dead, it will always be an issue.
There is just no electrical hardware engineers to spend their time on it,
That's if it is even possible.

Well Im almost sure its possible it's just that it may be really hard to make it possible ;D.
What I wanted to ask is: is this thread dead? Is there any research being done. I would love to help it's just that we need someone from Canon to answer some questions. If anyone has any connections that would be good. Or obviousley an electrical engineer. I feel like we should get a kickstarter started for donations towards a 6D for the testing to be done on. Then again I understand it's not just the 6d but all SD based cameras. The T2i would be a good place to start. I've heard on this thread that each camera uses a somewhat different IC so one IC may not work on another. Or am I wrong?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ilguercio on July 05, 2013, 05:17:55 AM
You are sure it's not impossible but yet you got no idea what you are talking about, i guess.
Yes, on paper you could change everything in the camera and rewrite the whole FW up to your liking but it would probably take years and be utterly expensive.
Again, what should we kickstart since we (them) got nothing to work on?
And yes, i am pretty sure a Canon engineer would be nice to have but i doubt it could be our ultimate problem solver, provided we find one who wants to share his knowledge with "us".
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Can on July 05, 2013, 06:29:47 AM
You cannot use usb because it is too slow

I could have sworn there was mention somewhere here of the theoretical possibility of the camera's USB interface reaching UHS-1 speeds...

Also - "USB 2.0: Released in April 2000. Added higher maximum signaling rate of 480 Mbit/s (effective throughput up to 35 MB/s or 280 Mbit/s)" - too slow? Unless of course the camera's interface is made to be incapable of such speeds.

And maybe, just maybe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: dlrpgmsvc on July 05, 2013, 08:55:05 AM
I could have sworn there was mention somewhere here of the theoretical possibility of the camera's USB interface reaching UHS-1 speeds...

Also - "USB 2.0: Released in April 2000. Added higher maximum signaling rate of 480 Mbit/s (effective throughput up to 35 MB/s or 280 Mbit/s)" - too slow? Unless of course the camera's interface is made to be incapable of such speeds.

And maybe, just maybe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go

Even if you will ever manage to hack the on camera usb, you will face another problem:
Usb speeds ratings are considered as 'burst' speeds, not continuous! This is why firewire was developed, assuring continuous high speeds.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: a1ex on July 05, 2013, 09:21:44 AM
Last time I've checked, I was getting around 10MB/s when copying pictures from the camera via USB.

Which is not that bad if you add it to the existing 20, no?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: xNiNELiVES on July 05, 2013, 09:22:23 AM
Not a bad idea actually...

The hard thing would be writing random frames from the buffer to the usb storage and then merging the frames with the frames on the SD Card. Or would it not? I'm speculating, I don't want to assume anything.

I'm guessing though that the frames would be merged in post production, not in camera right?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: a1ex on July 05, 2013, 10:20:23 AM
Yes, it requires changing the file format.

The same trick can be used on 5D3 (recording on CF and SD at the same time, with a 20MB/s theoretical speed boost).
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Can on July 05, 2013, 11:04:43 PM
Wouldn't that also lighten the load on the SD buffer, perhaps increasing the #of frames?  ;D
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: xNiNELiVES on July 06, 2013, 03:09:03 AM
Yes, it requires changing the file format.

The same trick can be used on 5D3 (recording on CF and SD at the same time, with a 20MB/s theoretical speed boost).

Does this trick work with the 5D2? What speed (mb/s) would be obtained by doing this on this particular camera?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on July 06, 2013, 05:40:06 AM
No more mentions of kickstarter, PLEASE.

6D has a slightly faster SD bottleneck compared to some other cameras.
http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/raw/raw-chart.png

I feel like we should get a kickstarter started for donations towards a 6D for the testing to be done on.
I'm guessing you own the 6D as to mention it. The way to help would be to tear it apart, which I am sure nobody is willing to do to their cameras.

For the record, I own a 550D. And no I haven't taken it apart, nor am I willing to. I'm always on the lookout for a 2nd hand cheap one, but they're all over $500.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: xNiNELiVES on July 06, 2013, 06:06:53 AM
I've pretty much given up now. The crew here has done a great job optimizing the 6D.

But the saying is, "You can't polish poop". The 6D will never obtain continuous high resolution raw video. I'm going to buy a 5D mark II.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Can on July 06, 2013, 06:58:45 AM
I would welcome the extra 10Mb/s if you guys could manage it.

Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Can on July 08, 2013, 08:23:58 PM
Is this anything like a possibility?  ;D

And is there anything I can do to be helpful?
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on July 09, 2013, 03:59:26 AM
Is this anything like a possibility?  ;D

And is there anything I can do to be helpful?

See above!!
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Can on July 09, 2013, 05:02:40 AM
See above!!

Actually, I was referring to the notion of using the USB interface as a supplement to the SD...should have been more specific, sorry.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on July 09, 2013, 05:32:09 AM
Actually, I was referring to the notion of using the USB interface as a supplement to the SD...should have been more specific, sorry.

The usb is really far too slow to be of any help to anything.
But I have no idea. Can't help you with that one sorry.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: Schmeknicolor on August 20, 2013, 04:28:57 PM
I know this is almost dead but i found a bigger picture of the SD Board if anyone is still interested  (https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Ft%2FCanon-EOS-550D-EOS-Rebel-T2i-EOS-Kiss-X4-SD-Board-PCB-Memeory-Card-Part-NEW-%2F00%2Fs%2FMTI4OFgxNjAw%2Fz%2FI2MAAOxybi9RdwPB%2F%24T2eC16JHJHEFFl0vrI0uBRdwP%211q1%21%7E%7E60_57.JPG&hash=a9d7a07c1d13431635cf2d05f0d9683d)
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: 600duser on October 13, 2013, 04:04:06 AM
Catching the Unicorn

1) there is probably a bandwidth bottleneck....as in data can only be SENT so fast to the SD card slot/port anyway

2) LiveRam....imagine a stick of DDR3 ram, powered by a battery, aka liveram

3) Create a high speed data cable that terminates in the shape of an SD card ( with appropriate protocol and ID )

In theory data could be sucked out of the camera at several Gigabytes (not bits) a second.

Perhaps a simpler way is to RAID up 2,3,or 4 SD cards....have them suck out the data alternately  in parallel


List of device bit rates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bit_rates




LiveRam is the ultimate bandwidth  solution. It would be like a class 10,000 SD card :-p
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on October 13, 2013, 06:20:19 AM
Catching the Unicorn

1) there is probably a bandwidth bottleneck....as in data can only be SENT so fast to the SD card slot/port anyway

2) LiveRam....imagine a stick of DDR3 ram, powered by a battery, aka liveram

3) Create a high speed data cable that terminates in the shape of an SD card ( with appropriate protocol and ID )

In theory data could be sucked out of the camera at several Gigabytes (not bits) a second.

Perhaps a simpler way is to RAID up 2,3,or 4 SD cards....have them suck out the data alternately  in parallel


List of device bit rates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bit_rates




LiveRam is the ultimate bandwidth  solution. It would be like a class 10,000 SD card :-p

There is the bottle neck in the sd card controller, the bit that communicates between the camera and the sd card. But the idea was to totally pass the sd card controller and build a new one, whether the data being passed to the sd controller is faster than the data from the controller to the card, nobody knows.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: 600duser on October 13, 2013, 09:34:15 AM
Ive been looking into camera hardware. I know next to nothing about digital cameras apart form the fact they suck to the power n but i know a great deal about computers,  imaging and physics related stuff. They are complex tricky devices for sure. A lot to squeeze into a small space. Engineering / repairman's nightmare but id so love to do a kick starter campaign 'Digital photography solved'  cos there is a huge gulf between where we are at now and where 'we could and should be', as a consumer, designer and engineer, its driving me bonkers !

You cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear, so despite the large number of owners of camera X advances in the hardware tech is likely to outpace most hardware hackers efforts. Software hackers having an easier time in general.

canon 600d disassembly
http://ghonis2.ho8.com/600Dreinstallsteps1a.html

Point of interest, i actually bought  a 100mbs class 10 U1 SDHC card before i decided what camera to get, there are faster cards than that.  A fast card you buy today would solve many speed issues. Very high frame rate video still going to be an issue though if its also at high resolution.


Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 . The GH1 and GH2 were hacked. Probably worth reading up on for those interested in the topic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC-GH3

"It is the first MILC that can record videos with a bit rate of up to 72 megabits per second. That is significantly higher than the specification of AVCHD 2.0 of up to 28 megabits per second, which was released in July 2011 and is used for similar cameras and camcorders.[3]"


Digital movie camera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_cinematography_cameras

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVCPRO#DVCPRO






SD Host Controller. SD Standards Some cameras now have 2 SD card slots.
https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/host_controller/



Q what kind of speeds are needed, reliable and burst speeds ?...solve one bottle neck and you quickly find the next !








Fast Communications.

http://www.astronomiser.co.uk/helpcanon.htm


This is important for a couple of different reasons. If imaging using a PC or laptop and downloading shots as you go, it's preferable to allow the camera a reasonable cool-down time between shots - a warm sensor means an increase in electro-thermal noise or noise caused by heat due to the electronics of the camera. A lot of electronic components heat up when in use (including sensors themselves) and a good idle time between shots (between 30 and 45 seconds depending on ambient temperature) can improve the quality of shots significantly. If a camera's communication electronics is running for half of this time, then heat inside the camera does not dissipate so readily. Secondly, if saving shots to a CF card then later downloading them to your PC, then download can take considerably longer.

The difference between the models is that some use USB1.1 and others use USB2.0. The speed difference is 12Mbps (Mega bits per second) vs 480Mbps - this is 40 times faster, but is a maximum measure of the speed available under the standard and note a true measure of the speed difference. A lot of other factors come into play - other devices attached to the USB bus (even some devices internal to the PC or laptop), the connected device's true maximum (i.e., flash drives have a maximum of about 240Mbps). The whole speed thing is a bit of a minefield - MBps is not the same as Mbps (Mega Bytes vs Mega bits - 8 bits in a Byte so multiply MBps by 8 to give Mbps) and Full-Speed USB is not the same as Hi-Speed - Full-Speed is 12Mbps USB 1.1 and Hi-Speed is USB 2.0. Also 'USB 2.0 Compatible' does not mean that it is USB 2.0. Anyway - this page - http://www.everythingusb.com/usb2/faq.htm - should answer some of your questions.

So, importantly, which camera is what?

    D60 - USB 1.1
    300D - USB 1.1
    10D - USB 1.1
    350D - USB 2.0
    400D - USB 2.0
    450D - USB 2.0
    1000D - USB 2.0
    20D - USB 2.0
    30D - USB 2.0
    40D - USB 2.0
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on October 13, 2013, 10:30:32 AM
Point of interest, i actually bought  a 100mbs class 10 U1 SDHC card before i decided what camera to get, there are faster cards than that.  A fast card you buy today would solve many speed issues. Very high frame rate video still going to be an issue though if its also at high resolution.
Have you actually read any of this post. You could have a kabillion MB/s card and it won't help, there's a bottle neck in the SD controller in the camera that limits it to 20MB/s

Q what kind of speeds are needed, reliable and burst speeds ?...solve one bottle neck and you quickly find the next !
If it is found how to overcome the sd card controller bottle neck then the next bottleneck would be the SD card. Speeds that are needed at 100MB/s, whatever the fastest SD speed there is to come along.

You should probably go back and read the posts first.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: 600duser on October 13, 2013, 10:38:57 AM
Fast SD cards will help, but we are only talking by a few % if the bottleneck is further upstream and if the SD card is already twice the speed

Cache sizes are also important

Found this link
http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/raw/raw-chart.png

Not an easy hack-around if there is no drop in physical substitute for the bottleneck controller.

Hardware to Hardware handshaking and protocols might be inflexible...bit stuffed in that case.

Need a detailed schematic of the data chain in order to have a more meaningful discussion, schematic of the specific hardware in question.

Over volting and overclocking can squeeze a double digit % increases if they are applicable. Heat and reliability can be an issue.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on October 13, 2013, 11:35:09 AM
Yes. All already realized facts.

Fast SD cards will help, but we are only talking by a few % if the bottleneck is further upstream and if the SD card is already twice the speed
A card that can manage 40MB/s write speed won't be any faster than a card that can manage 30MB/s, the bottleneck is 21MB/s.


The idea was to take out the SD card and SD controller in general. Replace with anything else, whether it be an SATA SSD to a magnetic tape (obviously not magnetic tape, just something faster than the 21MB/s controller). Nothing is known about the hardware though.
Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: 600duser on October 13, 2013, 08:41:36 PM
With video becoming a must have feature, or at least a top selling point this will drive the need for much faster processors and bandwidth pipelines.  Its a bit like how computer games drove the development of graphics and sound cards.

Talking of bandwidth i actually crashed my computer yesterday BSOD trying to play a 4k video taken by a Smart phone.

Things are moving fast, give it another 5 years and most of the video related kinks will be ironed out....bit frustrating but i guess thats just the way it is. Solving 'Video' is an order of magnitude more difficult than solving Still pics. Start saving the pennies i guess.

 

Title: Re: Can we build a hardware solution for the sd card based cameras' write speed?
Post by: ItsMeLenny on October 14, 2013, 02:59:34 AM
With video becoming a must have feature, or at least a top selling point this will drive the need for much faster processors and bandwidth pipelines.  Its a bit like how computer games drove the development of graphics and sound cards.

Talking of bandwidth i actually crashed my computer yesterday BSOD trying to play a 4k video taken by a Smart phone.

Things are moving fast, give it another 5 years and most of the video related kinks will be ironed out....bit frustrating but i guess thats just the way it is. Solving 'Video' is an order of magnitude more difficult than solving Still pics. Start saving the pennies i guess.

Yes but if you've seen, they still sell really shitty computers that can't run games. They will continue to sell shitty cameras which limit themselves in hardware for the sake of making people spend more money. They even limit the hardware via the software, there's hardware out there with twin siblings but they put worse software on one, and if you pay the 1000 dollars extra to upgrade all you're getting is the extra features that already existed and should've been unlocked in the first place.

I do believe the processor in some of these cameras, 550D, 600D, have the ability to do faster writing, the bottle neck is elsewhere, so this post is in some regards to do some reverse engineering, which people have put their hands up, but I guess gotten no results, or not been able to do what they were planning.

Here's an example of something else in the camera. The 550D actually has a stereo audio chip thingy, they only put in one mic tho, with a bit of soldering one could install a second mic and get in camera stereo, but then again, who would want to when one can just by a rose stereo mic or the like.