Well according to EOSHD .. Andrew has confirmed by Canon that the only difference between these two cameras is firmware ..
hardware is identical. Any chance of getting the firmware off a 1DC and flashing onto a 1DX ? I am not talking about throwing
ML on there ... just seeing if it would be possible to port a 1dc firmware onto a 1dx .. seems the hardware and everything is the same.
http://www.eoshd.com/content/9044/exclusive-canon-confirm-1d-c-4k-dslr-is-same-hardware-as-the-1d-x (http://www.eoshd.com/content/9044/exclusive-canon-confirm-1d-c-4k-dslr-is-same-hardware-as-the-1d-x)
Sorry for holding up your post ... akismet flagged it as bad...
Are we actually sure the firmware is the only difference? IIRC Canon told they had to re-engineer some hardware due to heat disspation (but it may as well been a PR stunt)
If the firmware is the only difference and IF there's a firmware update lying around then there may be hope. But we will also need both camera bodies first .....
Are you sure it's legal to do this in the first place?
See Apple-Psystar lawsuit about Hackintosh, it's very similar to this IMO.
I'm not going to try this.
no problem.
Well according to Andrew @ EOSHD .. he says he spoke to a Canon Europe person who told them there is no difference .. just firmware .. and of course a headphone jack. He asked him if there would be a paid firmware upgrade and the guy said no chance because the 1DC is taxed as a video camera and the 1DX is a stills.
I would buy a 1DX in a heartbeat if there was a chance. I was actually considering selling my mark III anyways for it.
Well people still doing Hackintosh's .. there are forums all around with guides etc .. Psystar was selling them .. so how could it be illegal if a feature gets enabled ? It's not like you would be buying 1Dx's and hacking the firmware then selling them as 1DC's for profit
As long as we don't provide the firmware files but just a patch we should be fine.
IANAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IANAL) but the Psystar lawsuit was due to Psystar selling PCs with OSX installed. We are not selling nor re-distribuiting anything.
The OSX86 project is still going strong (and ML is more like OSX86 than Psystar)
Quote from: nanomad on September 20, 2012, 09:13:00 PM
As long as we don't provide the firmware files but just a patch we should be fine.
IANAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IANAL) but the Psystar lawsuit was due to Psystar selling PCs with OSX installed. We are not selling nor re-distribuiting anything.
The OSX86 project is still going strong (and ML is more like OSX86 than Psystar)
I agree .. you should not have legal problems .. you are just putting ML on this just like any other camera
I don't know, pirate bay didn't host any copyrighted work, yet... guess where are its founders?
We would be technically stealing a $6000 thing from Canon and giving it to everybody for free (or for donations).
not if you are just putting ML on this like the other cameras .. if that was true you would have been sued already i would think
the fact that you guys finally found a way around dual digic with the 7d .. perhaps the same process can be used on the 1dx ?
Well, anyway we are lacking a 1Dc and 1Dx firmware dumps. Until then, who cares.
Quote from: nanomad on September 20, 2012, 09:20:52 PM
Well, anyway we are lacking a 1Dc and 1Dx firmware dumps. Until then, who cares.
I am on the fence about getting a 1dx .. have been for awhile .. might pull the trigger and if so i could do the dump on the 1dx provided you
tell me how .. 1dc on the other hand .. im sure once people get their hands on them they might do it as well
Andrew Reid is not a very reliable person in my opinion, there ARE some hardware differences, they are mainly about sensor cooling.
1D C is scheduled to go on sale this December (retail price €8038 or $10408), if a firmware update comes out later I think it's really worth looking into, because it's got all the "dream" features we want on a standard EOS DSLR, such as 1080 50p/60p, crop shooting, log gamma and MJPEG 4:2:2. Maybe we can take a look at how they implement these features and try them on 5D Mark III or other cameras, rather than porting the firmware to a 1DX.
However I believe these features are programmed to run on dual DIGIC 5+, so it's quite a challenge in my opinion.
There's actually a 1Dx 1.0.6 firmware update out. All we need to do is "just" dump the 1Dc firmware. Easier said than done :P
ML is written from scratch, so it can be considered an interoperable product. We had to break some technological measures and perform reverse engineering to achieve the interoperability.
So I believe what we do with ML qualifies as "fair use", but porting firmwares from one camera to another does not. But I don't have any background in law stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#Circumvention_of_Access_Controls
Well we will see. It seems that the EOSHD article about them being the same camera is making it's rounds on forums with people saying go ML go! lol. So you might start to see a bunch of donations incoming. ;D
Quote from: a1ex on September 20, 2012, 09:27:57 PM
ML is written from scratch, so it can be considered an interoperable product. We had to break some technological measures and perform reverse engineering to achieve the interoperability.
So I believe what we do with ML qualifies as "fair use", but porting firmwares from one camera to another does not. But I don't have any background in law stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention#Circumvention_of_Access_Controls
Well even if you cant port the firmware over .. enabling ML on the 1dx to shoot 4k or do clean hdmi out or 1080p 60p should be the same legally as enabling clean HDMI out on any of the canon cameras or 1080p 60p .. etc hypothetically speaking of course
Quote from: a1ex on September 20, 2012, 09:27:57 PM
So I believe what we do with ML qualifies as "fair use", but porting firmwares from one camera to another does not. But I don't have any background in law stuff.
Yep, that's my opinion too.
A binary patch (or simply copy/pasting ASM code from one firmware to another) is in the gray zone.
On the other hand, comparing the 1Dc and 1Dx routines to learn how to drive the image sensor in movie mode and then implement a ML 4k video mode is perfectly legal IMHO.
We could also get in touch with the EFF (https://www.eff.org/) and ask their opinion on this matter. They ARE lawyers, after all
Here, donations are contracts with no obligation for us, so... we can just say thanks :D
QuoteOn the other hand, comparing the 1Dc and 1Dx routines to learn how to drive the image sensor in movie mode and then implement a ML 4k video mode is perfectly legal IMHO
... as long as the process is "clean room" afaik ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design ).
1D C is still a beta unit at the moment and there is no firmware update for it, also it's not publicly available yet. therefore a dump is not very practical at this time.
I'm going to hire an 1D X for a sport shoot in early October so I'm able to do a firmware dump if there is an interest.
We already have a 1Dx firmware :P
There are 1DCs out there but I doubt the people that have them will dump the firmware .. since it people like Shane Hurlbut .. Still motion ...etc
Already got a dump? that's great, let's wait for 1D C and its firmware update then ;D
Well, Canon was so kind to make one for us.
http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/7/0400000637/01/eos1dx-v106-win.zip
This is just an update file yeah?
I remember when Alex and me was dumping the 5D3 firmware back in March, we need to get a full dump from the camera itself.
You may actually be right
well if i pull the trigger on one .. i will definitely do it if he needs it
Quote from: joxxie on September 20, 2012, 09:52:19 PM
well if i pull the trigger on one .. i will definitely do it if he needs it
I would suggest you save the money on an 1D C
http://www.techrific.com.au/canon-eos-1d-c-digital-slr-camera-body-only-1dc-free-gift-12mth-local-warranty-p-2956.html
this is currently the cheapest preorder. Will be released in December.
was talking bout 1dx .. not 1dc
At US$12,999 plus tax, you'd need roughly 250-300 donations of $50 dollars each to buy a 1DC.
Many 1D/5D/7D owners looking for a real upgrade from 1080p would be willing to donate if you open a special donation fund for this project!
Thanks,
M
Quote from: mgm on September 20, 2012, 10:07:29 PM
At US$12,999 plus tax, you'd need roughly 250-300 donations of $50 dollars each to buy a 1DC.
Many 1D/5D/7D owners looking for a real upgrade from 1080p would be willing to donate if you open a special donation fund for this project!
Thanks,
M
The actual price is $10408, see link in previous post.
plus shipping from AUS .. BH photo here has it for 12,999
Didn't I post this 2 weeks ago in the 5d3 thread? ??? I wouldn't trust anything Andrew posts on his website. :-*
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=1006.msg10688#msg10688
Hell I'll donate a third time just for the giggles!
I think that ML is similar to Osx in many way, specially in the fact that it's a way to capture new user for canon and apple. I belive that there is a lot of windows user that switched to mac after some hackintosh experience, and a lot less if none that upgraded to an hack from a mac pro.
The same is for ML supported camera, how many ML user will consider with more interest in upgrading to a better body but still with ML support?
Reading the forum seems to me that a lot of people are considering ML support a decisive choice, and a lot of user buy canon for this software too, so even if we are moving the economy in the canon gamma that is not really a big problem for canon, maybe the more user base looking for hackable camera will compensate.
We are helping canon in selling more camera because their camera can run ML, this is the point. In a hypothetical future where all canon camera will run ML, I think that the price gap will be still there but just based on hardware, and all the feat that other vendors lack given from ML are a plus without troubles, no warranty, no extra tax for user.
If 1Dx and 1Dc are almost the same hardware and it will be possible to make them better with ML or with crossloading firmware, or any other way, don't matter. We will have canon selling more phographic dslr equipment at a lower price, and maybe sending a bit less on the priced same hardware videographic dslr eq. BUT more people will buy the low cost no video that becomes video with ML camera, so the big loose is on video camera taxes, for what i see because if the hardware is the same canon spend the same to make one or another camera.
This is of course just my 2 cents, the idea to ask to EFF how it works legally is not bad at all.
That company selling osX PCs was a real low rent operation. Of course they got sued... you can't take someone's product, put your name on it and sell it for 1/2 off.
I doubt the cameras are identical, they probably added extra heat-sinks to the sensor and other warm bits. Current cameras get hot already when quality is cranked up. 1Dc stuff is probably in 1Dx firmware already but lack of better cooling will affect stability/performance and canon can't sell a $12k camera like that. Maybe they got better performance in the lab than they hoped and decided to make it into a product.
Quoteso the big loose is on video camera taxes
Except nobody but EU is greedy enough to tax cameras by how long they can record. Either way its going to be funny money soon enough. Dollar too, just going to take longer.
I agree that ML is selling more canon products than they could hope for. They are pretty crippled without it. High end is a different story... how many black magic cameras can I buy for a 1dx/1dc?
OSX is a little different as Apple is mainly selling hardware. Sure it helps them that people like me try it but then we go and run it on commodity hardware. Linux runs about as well but is missing so many actually usable apps for media.
Quote from: 1% on September 21, 2012, 05:45:45 AM
OSX is a little different as Apple is mainly selling hardware. Sure it helps them that people like me try it but then we go and run it on commodity hardware. Linux runs about as well but is missing so many actually usable apps for media.
Apple
was a company that sells hardware, now it's a company that sells music and video thru iTunes...and is selling it also to hackintosh user :) Hackintosh->iDevice->buy music and media...
What makes hackintosh cost more than a mac on the long run is the time user has to spend for keeping it updated, and yes linux is really good but I need photoshop, gimp is nice but I'm not used at all with it.
I don't see the problem.
What we saw with the production cycle of DIGIC V is that it takes 3-4 years to produce one. With the DIGIC IV, features were revealed one by one to last 3-4 years on the same chip. The same will happen with the DIGIC V. Extra features will be spread over a couple of years as the market progresses. The 1Dc is just a preview of what's possible right away. So you either get the DIGIC V at it's full potential now for a price or wait a couple of years for 1080@60p and maybe 4k on mainstream DSLR.
If you "need" all these features to express your creativity that can't be done with your current equipment? Buy the 1Dc or some other model that fits. Otherwise make the most out of what you have and be patient. Very few members are making a feature film anytime soon and current DSLR models do fine for 720p/1080p webvideo.
I'm just exited to get this preview of what the DIGIC V is capable of. It means tweaking encoder settings might get some great improvement because the hardware is not the limiting factor anymore. For DIGIC IV it is not so clear. For me the lineskipping aliasing were always a big problem with the DIGIC IV. You can improve quality all you like but this fundamental flaw would spoil everything. If models like the 6D take care of proper resizing I see great potential in encoder tweaking. But we should respect Canons business model.
If the hardware is identical, it means 1DX is capable of a 500Mbit data rate ( 1DC's data rate at 4K ). Even if we got that bitrate at 1080p, it would be a massive feature upgrade.
Quote from: a1ex on September 20, 2012, 09:08:05 PM
Are you sure it's legal to do this in the first place?
I put up a poll (but plz discuss here) to get a survey: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=2902
And my 2 cents in this thread, too: For me it doesn't matter if possible, impossible or hard to do, neither if it's legal, illegal or half-legal. Directly torpedoing Canon's high-end business model is something different from beefing up low- to midrange cameras with features Canon is too lazy to implement.
I am convinced Magic Lantern is helping Canon, even if they are too conservative to acknowledge it. Directly obsoleting the 1dc is something else and might change their opinion from neutral to hostile and will hurt the manufacturer. Imho if someone or a company can afford the $6500 1dx, there's no need to help them save money. Ths ml business model should not be "give us half the $$$ difference 1dx/1dc and we'll unlock it".
Quote from: Marsu42 on September 26, 2012, 09:57:41 PM
I put up a poll (but plz discuss here) to get a survey: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=2902
And my 2 cents in this thread, too: For me it doesn't matter if possible, impossible or hard to do, neither if it's legal, illegal or half-legal. Directly torpedoing Canon's high-end business model is something different from beefing up low- to midrange cameras with features Canon is too lazy to implement.
I am convinced Magic Lantern is helping Canon, even if they are too conservative to acknowledge it. Directly obsoleting the 1dc is something else and might change their opinion from neutral to hostile and will hurt the manufacturer. Imho if someone or a company can afford the $6500 1dx, there's no need to help them save money. Ths ml business model should not be "give us half the $$$ difference 1dx/1dc and we'll unlock it".
So how are you going to feel if Canon releases a 5DC that is twice the price of the mark iii and records 2k but it has the same exact hardware? Then I guess going by your logic ML should not touch it since if one can afford a mark iii they can afford a 5dc
By this logic, software developers will starve and disappear soon ;)
Why should we steal the 4K feature from 1Dc and port it to a cheaper model?!
1DC is different because it is overpriced compared to the competition. Waste of time IMHO for the 3 people that will buy one and try to hack it. Also canon is stuck on it. "5DC" vs 5DIII is a different story as the camera is at least reasonably affordable vs competing offerings. 1DC should be recording more than raw 4k 4:4:4, 5dIII should be recording 2k 4:2:2 at where they are priced.
They should be pushing their hardware/software for every model. They aren't in competition with ML, they are in competition with everyone else. It was all fun and games while others were playing catch up.
Why even release updated models if you're going to add 1 new feature. People were happy with 550D/5DII for a long time and the new models should have offered serious improvements and in some cases they did... just they were completely not taken advantage of. Leave a dummy mode for consumers and advanced mode for "pros".
Its like releasing 64-bit processors and then locking all software/memory to 32bit with the OS. Finally, crying when some devs put linux on it. People aren't going to pay to be reamed just because.
Quote from: 1% on October 03, 2012, 07:31:27 PM
They should be pushing their hardware/software for every model. They aren't in competition with ML, they are in competition with everyone else. It was all fun and games while others were playing catch up.
Correct, and every second post I do on the CR forum is complaining about this, the current Canon execs deserve to get fired. But do you think ML is here to influence or change Canon corporate policy, do you feel ML even could?
Quote from: joxxie on October 03, 2012, 05:22:33 PM
So how are you going to feel if Canon releases a 5DC that is twice the price of the mark iii and records 2k but it has the same exact hardware? Then I guess going by your logic ML should not touch it since if one can afford a mark iii they can afford a 5dc
My logic is different from what you understood, so I'd like to explain it, sorry for the lengthy post :-o
Imho it is absolutely legit to differentiate software by features/price, on computers this is often done: You can "unlock" different versions of a software by entering different keys, though the software itself is the same. Do you feel cheated if there is "Software X basic" and "Software x pro" for different prices? Would you feel less cheated if "Software X basic" was physically missing some software components, even if it doesn't make a difference to you at all?
Canon is differentiating the 1dx/c products for general - though pricy - use as the 1dx and with a feature set that is clearly targeted for professional use with the 1dc. And if you buy Canon, you buy their cps support with it, a feature often overlooked, so it's not just Canon vs some other manufacturer that has good features, too.
A dslr is basically a computer, the the same logic applies. It's crazy people feel bad because the hardware is the same. I own a laptop, and it would run $500 Photoshop (with features I'll probably never use or even discover), but I can only afford the $90 Photoshop Elements. Do I feel cheated by Adobe?
The whole 1dc hack issue is just an excuse for saving money and legitimating it with "The manufacturer rips us off". This has been done n times over, even software cracks ("games are too expensive) destroying whole platforms like the Amiga line of computers. Believe me: I do like to simply save money in less-than-ethical ways too, esp. at big companies' expense - but at least I'm clearly saying so.
And ML (well, if I'm contributing at least) should be there to accompany Canon, not fight it because...
- * the 1dc hack is only saving money for rich people that can afford a 1dx and
- * it's strategical madness because we'd surely like more corporation from Canon like the ability to control non-lv mode - but they can make life much harder for ml like voiding warranties. And a dslr doesn't run user code, you cannot root it by exploits, so if Canon decides to encrypt their firmware & disable the main ml boot hook that's it.
Let's stick to the "modding" that ML is best at, adding new great features while backporting non-key elements like "3+ bracketing" to the lesser models like 5d2 while Canon obviously thinks only the 5d3 should have it - there are enough new features on the 5d3 left. I know the differentiation between "key element" or not is fuzzy, but "cracking" and obsoleting a whole camera model is clearly beyond it.
Well said.
ML - and what this forum and their developer stand for - is a firmware addition to add cool and necessary features.
anything like porting firmware to other models is beyond our scope and has a higher risk of legal actions.
as far i can tell, most people here would agree to that.
if a developer is willing to do that - its his own private business.
Besides the 1dc thing, this is like BUYING photoshop elements, loading the DLLs and writing your own UI which supports importing formats that even production premium can't handle. Then Adobe gets mad and says consumers don't need those formats, go buy a program that supports them....except you can't.
Quote from: joxxie on September 20, 2012, 08:38:20 PM
Well according to EOSHD .. Andrew has confirmed by Canon that the only difference between these two cameras is firmware ..
hardware is identical. Any chance of getting the firmware off a 1DC and flashing onto a 1DX ? I am not talking about throwing
ML on there ... just seeing if it would be possible to port a 1dc firmware onto a 1dx .. seems the hardware and everything is the same.
http://www.eoshd.com/content/9044/exclusive-canon-confirm-1d-c-4k-dslr-is-same-hardware-as-the-1d-x (http://www.eoshd.com/content/9044/exclusive-canon-confirm-1d-c-4k-dslr-is-same-hardware-as-the-1d-x)
I shall miss Magic Lantern if you do. I assume it would all be over pretty quickly.
ML has sold more cameras for Canon (probably not many but perhaps a few) and has not apparently violated any fair use. And Canon has not appeared to object and hence not done any of the many very, very simple things a manufacturer could do to shut it down or cripple it.
Porting a firmware from a very, very expensive camera to a very expensive camera does nothing but cheat Canon of revenue that they are earning by spending money to develop innovative software. The market for such cameras is tiny and I assume Canon would stop the innovation if the port were widely adopted.
The work to port the firmware does not deserve the respect that an interesting, creative development like ML has earned. JMO.
Don't worry, we won't do it.
I'd go as far as excluding from ML community any developer who would try to do something like this.
Is this even possible? I am on the bench considering the 1DX
Read the post above ::)
Hello
Just to say, I'm a photographer, happy owner of ML on 5DMkII for my video shoots. I own a 1Dx too, as I need it for my sport business (and my bank does not consider myself as rich, as one on this forum said...), and I would happily pay if ML was going to develop its own firmware (no copyright infringement here, right ?) to enhance this camera video capabilities, to reach the one of the 1Dc. Well actually, I don't really need 4K, but 1080 60p is really what I want. High Res moderate slow mo, all perfect for a lot of us.
Everybody is a bit underwhelmed by what we think are software limitations even on high end cinema eos cameras. What ? No 1080 60p on C100, or even C300 ? They must be kidding at this price range. And even 1Dx is not cheap. Great camera, great sensor, even more in video mode, but well, it lacks those 1080 60p.
So please tell us, if you plan such stuff, or work on it, I'll then even more happily donate.
All the best
Short answer: None is thinking about doing it.
we fully understand your position and agree that that this lack of feature is disappointing.
also the technical aspects would be no big deal imho.
but i am sorry to tell you, the Magic Lantern team decided to *not* develop on EOS 1D series.
we devs all agree that this is a totally different price range and we would seriously deal in business cases where we dont want to be active.
see this as a political decision, but somewhere you have to say: "stop!" and the 1D is such one.
the discussion and decision *is* already made, so even your offer of a donation wouldnt change anything.
(i personally dont want to jump into a shark tank, even for money ;) )
i hope you understand our position.
but we of course will continue work on the 5D2, 5D3 and all the other models and will provide you
free feature upgrades for these caneras ;)
Quote from: g3gg0 on December 18, 2012, 03:35:49 PM
but we of course will continue work on the 5D2, 5D3 and all the other models and will provide you
free feature upgrades for these caneras ;)
Speaking of which, any chance for 1080p 60fps or 4K on any of the magic lanterned cameras? :3
It takes a deep understanding on how the sensor works. We are quite busy with new ports lately, so don't expect anything
Cool! No worries. Take your time. Just wondering if it is even at all possible. I thought it would need a more expensive version of that software thing you were buying?
Short answer: no.
Recent release statement from Canon about a new EOS 1DC firmware.
It seems to be only available for camera owners and the camera is upgraded by Canon service.
As the following states:
SYDNEY, Australia, 29 May 2013 – Canon Australia today announces that the new firmware upgrade for the EOS-1D C, the world's first 4K DSLR, is now available. The feature upgrade, which was first announced in January 2013, has been developed taking into account feedback from the professional community and adds support for 25p recording at the camera's maximum 4K resolution.
Designed for the motion picture, television and high-resolution production industries, the TIPA award-winning EOS-1D C is the world's first DSLR to support 4K video capture. It offers a unique, highly portable package optimised for ultra-high quality recording, delivering exceptional low-light performance and film-like dynamic range from a highly-compact body that can be used in a wide-range of shooting situations.
"Support for 25p recording at full 4K resolution is a major benefit for ultra-high-resolution production environments such as the television industry," says Charles Montesin, Product Manager – Professional Imaging, Canon Australia. "The new firmware will add another dimension to the versatility of this ground-breaking camera and we're excited to be able to offer this new feature in direct response to requests from professionals in this field."
The EOS-1D C captures 4K (4,096 x 2,160) video using 8-bit motion JPEG compression, with the ability to simultaneously output an uncompressed Full HD (1920x1080) YCbCr 4:2:2 signal to an external recorder via its HDMI terminal. Full HD video can also be recorded direct to CF cards at frame rates of up to 1080/60p, whilst Canon Log Gamma ensures video is rich in exposure latitude and dynamic range – offering outstanding freedom for video professionals during shooting, and for colourists in post-production.
The EOS-1D C firmware upgrade is not downloadable. Customers should contact Canon's service centre at North Ryde by email to make arrangement to have the new firmware installed