Magic Lantern Forum

General Discussion => General Chat => Topic started by: NightlyMattya22 on September 28, 2020, 05:24:19 AM

Title: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: NightlyMattya22 on September 28, 2020, 05:24:19 AM
Canon recently published a white paper for their DGO sensor on C70/C300MKIII

After viewing this image, i wonder, whats the difference between Canon`s and ML`s Dual ISO? They seem to both be drawing info from dual gain,
instead of two different set of amp?

(https://shizukudn.imgur.com/all/?third_party=1#_=_)
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: Audionut on September 30, 2020, 01:25:05 PM
The img link is broken. The direct link in your other (deleted post) lead to a broken page.

Perhaps you could just link the whitepaper.
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: darthivm on October 30, 2020, 03:21:31 AM
I would be also interested in this discussion:). Please post some links for the canons implementation, so others could participate too:)
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: NightlyMattya22 on March 14, 2021, 03:24:43 PM
Here is the link sorry
https://imgur.com/gallery/MqcWhZi
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: Audionut on March 15, 2021, 12:30:50 PM
ML dual_iso is as a result of reverse engineering. It was noticed that there were more then one amplifier (attached to the sensor) that could be adjusted separately. This allowed dual_iso, but does have some drawbacks.

Canon's solution is bespoke. It is likely that there are still more then one amplifier (column gains iirc?), however, instead of finding more DR by adjusting these amplifiers separately, with all of the drawbacks associated with, Canon doesn't flush the photosites when they are first read, and instead retains the photosite "memory" for more than one amplification pass.

ML....
2 lines of image signal at ISO xx
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO yy
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO xx
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO yy
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO xx
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO yy
etc...
etc...


Then a post application is used to match ISO yy brightness to ISO xx brightness.


Canon scans the entire image at ISO xx, then scans it again at ISO yy (and presumably could continue to scan it however often they want, to a point). Basically this is ML dual_iso with none of the drawbacks.
Oh and I assume all of the post processing is done in camera. Would be nice if they allow a raw of each scan to be saved.
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: garry23 on March 15, 2021, 01:12:50 PM
https://downloads.canon.com/cinemaeos/DGO-Sensor-White-Paper.pdf
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: NightlyMattya22 on March 17, 2021, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: Audionut on March 15, 2021, 12:30:50 PM
ML dual_iso is as a result of reverse engineering. It was noticed that there were more then one amplifier (attached to the sensor) that could be adjusted separately. This allowed dual_iso, but does have some drawbacks.

Canon's solution is bespoke. It is likely that there are still more then one amplifier (column gains iirc?), however, instead of finding more DR by adjusting these amplifiers separately, with all of the drawbacks associated with, Canon doesn't flush the photosites when they are first read, and instead retains the photosite "memory" for more than one amplification pass.

ML....
2 lines of image signal at ISO xx
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO yy
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO xx
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO yy
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO xx
next 2 lines of image signal at ISO yy
etc...
etc...


Then a post application is used to match ISO yy brightness to ISO xx brightness.


Canon scans the entire image at ISO xx, then scans it again at ISO yy (and presumably could continue to scan it however often they want, to a point). Basically this is ML dual_iso with none of the drawbacks.
Oh and I assume all of the post processing is done in camera. Would be nice if they allow a raw of each scan to be saved.

  But wouldnt there be a lag?
  IIRC, ZCAM has done something similar to there SONY sensor. As a result, the HDR mode on that camera has some serious aliasing and rolling shutter effect.
  I know ARRI has a DGO sensor, that, if I am right, simultaniously outputs two different set of amplified signals to proccess. I assume that is what Canon is doing?
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: NightlyMattya22 on March 17, 2021, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: garry23 on March 15, 2021, 01:12:50 PM
https://downloads.canon.com/cinemaeos/DGO-Sensor-White-Paper.pdf
Thanks fot the link. This is an interesting read.
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: Audionut on March 17, 2021, 01:14:30 PM
Quote from: NightlyMattya22 on March 17, 2021, 12:46:33 PM
  But wouldnt there be a lag?

IIRC, the whitepaper says it can do 60fps.

Quote from: NightlyMattya22 on March 17, 2021, 12:46:33 PM
if I am right, simultaniously outputs two different set of amplified signals to proccess. I assume that is what Canon is doing?

Depends on exactly what you mean. For this discussion, exposure means one actuation of the shutter.

Samsung smart phones does HDR with 2 different exposures. This must be the case because of the motion artifacts.

Canon is doing HDR with one exposure. Shutter opens, sensor captures the signal. This signal (the exposure) is then stored in a memory.
From there, it is amplified twice. Once at minimum amplification to captures the highlights, and once with a higher amplification to capture the shadows.
These two differently amplified images (of exactly the same exposure) are then blended together to deliver the final HDR image.
Title: Re: The difference between DGO on C70/C300MKIII vs ML HDR besides interlacingscan?
Post by: NightlyMattya22 on March 18, 2021, 05:51:40 AM
Quote from: Audionut on March 17, 2021, 01:14:30 PM
IIRC, the whitepaper says it can do 60fps.

Depends on exactly what you mean. For this discussion, exposure means one actuation of the shutter.

Samsung smart phones does HDR with 2 different exposures. This must be the case because of the motion artifacts.

Canon is doing HDR with one exposure. Shutter opens, sensor captures the signal. This signal (the exposure) is then stored in a memory.
From there, it is amplified twice. Once at minimum amplification to captures the highlights, and once with a higher amplification to capture the shadows.
These two differently amplified images (of exactly the same exposure) are then blended together to deliver the final HDR image.

I see, :)
thanks