Hi all,
Love the amazing work that ML has been doing. I am in the process of putting together a "no budget" (under 10k) feature film, and looking to use a pair of DSLRs with ML to capture RAW footage. I currently have a pair of 60D cameras, but learned unfortunately too late that the resolution of the RAW files on the 60D is vastly different for a 6 second burst, and continuous 24fps recording.
I may now have to sell of the 60D's and purchase different cameras in order to get HD quality RAW footage in continuous shots... and I don't want to make another big mistake. What would be the best camera to go with? I was thinking about the 7D, but according to the "current capabilities" chart, there is still a question as towhether it can do 1728x972 at 24fps?
And if I had the 7D, or another DSLR, could I shoot long shots - say for 10 minutes straight in RAW with a sufficiently large card, or would there be some other technical obstacle?
Thank-you in advance for your help! :)
~Ariaelf
First of all, congratulations on making a no-budget sub-$10k feature film; the world simply doesn't have enough of those!
Secondly, if you can get your hands on a 5D3, that is the camera you want. If you can't get your hands on a 5D3, then your next best bet would be the Blackmagic Pocket Camera.
The 7D is a distant 3rd, with poor low light capability, lots of noise and stuck pixels at higher ISO's, and sub HD resolution. I shot with two 7D's, and halfway through the shoot we opted (smartly) to upgrade to two 5D3's which made everyone considerably happier.
The 2 Best Camera's are the 5D2 & 5D3 , the 5D3 has a little more capabilities e.g. Full HD @30p continuous , no moiré and aliasing in 1:1 mode but more expensive.
The 5D2 dose 2:1 A.R. at (1872x936 older build not in newer builds) 1856x928 @ 23.976 with audio continuous on 1000x CF Card, Crop mode 2k without any moiré and aliasing and less expensive.
I have seen used 5D2 go for from as little $800.0 to $1,500.0 with low activation (about 5000) and the 5D3 is about twice that or buy new .
In my tests, the 5D2 actually performed a bit worse than the 7D, however it does have a bit better low light capability.
I still have to recommend the Blackmagic Pocket as a solid contender for very low budget productions looking to shoot in raw.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 12:17:33 AM
First of all, congratulations on making a no-budget sub-$10k feature film; the world simply doesn't have enough of those!
I hope that isn't blatant sarcasm... lol
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 12:17:33 AM
Secondly, if you can get your hands on a 5D3, that is the camera you want. If you can't get your hands on a 5D3, then your next best bet would be the Blackmagic Pocket Camera.
Well... back to that whole "under 10k budget for the whole film" thing... there is no way we can shell out $3500 for one camera. And we're actually looking to have two cameras, to shoot from multiple angles at once for some of the improvised scenes.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 12:17:33 AM
The 7D is a distant 3rd, with poor low light capability, lots of noise and stuck pixels at higher ISO's, and sub HD resolution. I shot with two 7D's, and halfway through the shoot we opted (smartly) to upgrade to two 5D3's which made everyone considerably happier.
Isn't great dynamic range / being able to correct the lighting one of the biggest reasons for shooting in raw? That said, we are using a decent light set up, not just running around pointing at things.... low light capability is not as high on the priority list. I prefer to shoot at ISO 160, and never above 640 on the 60D, and have been happy with it. I also have fast lenses. What do you mean by sub HD? It shoots full 1080...
If you can go for a 7k upgrade half way through the shoot more power to you! :) But that's not going to be possible for this project.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 05:54:11 AM
In my tests, the 5D2 actually performed a bit worse than the 7D, however it does have a bit better low light capability.
I still have to recommend the Blackmagic Pocket as a solid contender for very low budget productions looking to shoot in raw.
Well that's good, because we won't be able to afford a pair of 5D2's or 5D3s.... :)
When you used the 7D, were you able to record 1728x972 continuous RAW? I want to make sure this is possible before getting one.
My other question, is how long can you shoot RAW for... is it possible to do a 10 minute take, or does the FAT32/4Gig thing mess that up? Is there a way around it?
Lastly, how much space does a minute of RAW full HD footage on the 7D take? I'm trying to estimate the cost of fast & large CF cards, computer hard drives, etc.
I will also have a look at the BMPocketcam... several people have mentioned it. I just don't know the "real cost". Black Magic's previous camera was "only" 3k... until you actually got what you needed in order to make it work on a set. Then it was 5k+ :P
Quote from: ariaelf on May 12, 2014, 08:30:27 AM
Lastly, how much space does a minute of RAW full HD footage on the 7D take? I'm trying to estimate the cost of fast & large CF cards, computer hard drives, etc.
Size in GB = (W * H * FPS * Time * 14/8) / 2^30
Example:
1728 * 972 * 24fps * (60s) * 14/8 / 2^30 = 4GB
Quote from: ariaelf on May 12, 2014, 08:24:22 AM
I hope that isn't blatant sarcasm... lol
Well... back to that whole "under 10k budget for the whole film" thing... there is no way we can shell out $3500 for one camera. And we're actually looking to have two cameras, to shoot from multiple angles at once for some of the improvised scenes.
Isn't great dynamic range / being able to correct the lighting one of the biggest reasons for shooting in raw? That said, we are using a decent light set up, not just running around pointing at things.... low light capability is not as high on the priority list. I prefer to shoot at ISO 160, and never above 640 on the 60D, and have been happy with it. I also have fast lenses. What do you mean by sub HD? It shoots full 1080...
If you can go for a 7k upgrade half way through the shoot more power to you! :) But that's not going to be possible for this project.
I always enjoy it when the person asking the questions turns out to be a know-it-all who apparently has already all the information that he needs. Were you just testing us?
First of all, rental is always an option. We rented the 5D3 for about $100/week.
Secondly, I also mentioned the Blackmagic Pocket which retails for about $1000, all in all is a superior camera to shoot something as important as a feature length project. I could tell you about all the various other issues that we had with the 7D (which is only slightly less expensive than the Blackmagic...if you buy it used on eBay) but apparently you already seem to be the expert so why should I bother?
And lastly, no, the 7D doesn't shoot at 1080p, you'll have to upsize in post.
P.S.
About the added cost of the Blackmagic -- guess what...that is true for all cameras. You will need a bunch of cards, extra batteries, some sort of rig, lenses etc. If anything, the Pocket is the least expensive to outfit well for a shoot (i.e. you won't need to tag on a $500 Anton-Bauer external battery rig as you would on the 4K). Also, the SD cards required by the Blackmagic Pocket are, if anything, a bit less expensive than the cheapest Komputerbay cards you'll need for the 7D, and a lot less expensive for the better name brands like Lexars.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 05:57:23 PM
I always enjoy it when the person asking the questions turns out to be a know-it-all who apparently has already all the information that he needs. Were you just testing us?
Really, a "know-it-all"? I started the thread by saying I had no idea the 60D raw capabilities were so limited it only shot near HD size for all of 6 seconds... and continuous recording turned out to be a pitiful 960x540. Hardly "knowing it all" I would say.
I am double checking everything because I don't need another expensive mistake that pushes our film further off schedule. I am here to double check facts, not "test" anyone.
Oh, and I'm a "she" actually. Don't know too many dudes named "Aria".
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 05:57:23 PM
First of all, rental is always an option. We rented the 5D3 for about $100/week.
Wish I could, but we will be shooting over a period of 6 months.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 05:57:23 PM
Secondly, I also mentioned the Blackmagic Pocket which retails for about $1000, all in all is a superior camera to shoot something as important as a feature length project. I could tell you about all the various other issues that we had with the 7D (which is only slightly less expensive than the Blackmagic...if you buy it used on eBay) but apparently you already seem to be the expert so why should I bother?
Feel free to drop the snarky attitude at any time. I'm looking for real world answers for those who've used the 7D raw hack in the real world, not sarcasm.
And no, the 7D is not "only slightly less expensive than the Blackmagic."
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 05:57:23 PM
And lastly, no, the 7D doesn't shoot at 1080p, you'll have to upsize in post.
Yes, but upscaling 10% isn't what worries me. I wasn't sure how long the clip length could be shooting 1728x972, or if it was even really possible given the question mark on the current capabilities spreadsheet. Can anyone who's actually used the 7D raw hack tell me if they could get 5 or 10 minute clips of 1728x972 RAW? Or does the camera stop after a short time, or get glitchy?
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 05:57:23 PM
About the added cost of the Blackmagic -- guess what...that is true for all cameras. You will need a bunch of cards, extra batteries, some sort of rig, lenses etc. If anything, the Pocket is the least expensive to outfit well for a shoot (i.e. you won't need to tag on a $500 Anton-Bauer external battery rig as you would on the 4K). Also, the SD cards required by the Blackmagic Pocket are, if anything, a bit less expensive than the cheapest Komputerbay cards you'll need for the 7D, and a lot less expensive for the better name brands like Lexars.
Well the difference would be that all my 60D lenses and batteries work just fine with a 7D and nothing new has to be purchased, aside from the CF cards. But with the Blackmagic Pocket Cam, not only does it cost twice as much right off the bat because you can't get it used, I would also need a completely different set of lenses, would would be a few more grand.... and tons and tons of batteries according to PB because it eats them like candy unlike the 7D, and those batteries are expensive. To rig up a single BMPC for the film would be around 3-4k whereas a 7D would be around 1-1.5k (buying it used, getting CF cards) so thats a huge difference when you need TWO cameras, and the total budget is around $10,000 for the whole film.
Quote from: dmilligan on May 12, 2014, 04:39:49 PM
Size in GB = (W * H * FPS * Time * 14/8) / 2^30
Example:
1728 * 972 * 24fps * (60s) * 14/8 / 2^30 = 4GB
Woohoo! Thank-you Dmilligan, that's hugely helpful :)
Hi Aria,
I've been in and out of the forums daily checking up on the updates of the 7D raw functionality. I've even shared a little of my experiences specifically for the 7D. To be fair I've been using the Tragic Lantern builds but I expect the newer Magic Lantern builds are the same. You can check out the links below which might help you out without having to repeat myself or others. Hopefully these links help.
7D skipping frames - clarify write speeds
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11789.0
How many minutes of RAW footage does a 32gb or 64gb hold?
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11656.0
7D and the SanDisk 160 Mb/s
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11617.0
Workaround for pink/magenta highlights in overexposed footage
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11802.0
Quote from: ariaelf on May 12, 2014, 07:55:27 PM
Well the difference would be that all my 60D lenses and batteries work just fine with a 7D and nothing new has to be purchased, aside from the CF cards. But with the Blackmagic Pocket Cam, not only does it cost twice as much right off the bat because you can't get it used, I would also need a completely different set of lenses, would would be a few more grand.... and tons and tons of batteries according to PB because it eats them like candy unlike the 7D, and those batteries are expensive. To rig up a single BMPC for the film would be around 3-4k whereas a 7D would be around 1-1.5k (buying it used, getting CF cards) so thats a huge difference when you need TWO cameras, and the total budget is around $10,000 for the whole film.
I disagree on your cost assessment, you basically only need a micro 4/3 to EF adapter (about $10 on eBay), SD cards (which as I mentioned are actually more cost effective than el-cheapo CF cards), and some batteries which B&H sells for as cheap as $14 a piece.
Most completed eBay listings on 7D's are in the high $700's to $900, so yes, it's a bit cheaper...a bit. EP6 batteries are more expensive (even the off brand), CF cards are also up there particularly if you go with the more reliable Lexars. Also, shooting in raw will definitely use up batteries faster than in normal mode. Ultimately you're still running a hack on a camera which until fairly recently wasn't even supported. You'll be dealing with glitchy external monitoring, no playback, and the constant fear of not really knowing if the footage you just captured is corrupted.
I'm not saying this because I pulled this info out of my ass, I'm saying it because I've shot extensively with the 7D and ultimately it just wasn't up to my work standards.
I think the 5D3 is pretty much the only camera of the bunch which yield a workable reliability with somewhat reliable external monitoring, good ISO/noise ratio, no moire/aliasing, full 1080p resolution, a CF bus fast enough to handle audio and video simultaneously (will come in handy for sync purposes in post), and is the least prone to errors.
You're of course free to go and learn from your own mistakes, but you did ask for opinions.
Your words "What would be the best camera to go with?"
I think the polite response to my post would have been to acknowledge the information instead of immediately shooting down everything I shared...then again I suppose maybe I have different standards.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
I disagree on your cost assessment, you basically only need a micro 4/3 to EF adapter (about $10 on eBay), SD cards (which as I mentioned are actually more cost effective than el-cheapo CF cards), and some batteries which B&H sells for as cheap as $14 a piece.
The problem with your assumption is that those EF lenses are going to look completely different on a micro 4/3rds sensor, and you can kiss your shallow depth of field and wide angles goodbye unless you buy new expensive fast glass specifically with the pocket cam in mind. The add the cost of the $500 speedboster and the fact that your BM batteries can't be recharged without actually using the camera as a charger, and you'll need a dozen of those batteries to get through a shooting day.
So I either buy new glass that is incredibly fast and wide (ie expensive) so that I can get the look I want on a much much smaller sensor, and buy a whole new set of batteries, along with a brand new, relatively untested $1000 camera, or use the multiple canon batteries I already have, the glass I already have, and get a 7D + a $300 fast CF card or two, with 128gb of room on it.
Everyone's situation is different, and I'm sure the BMPC is great for some, but based on my research the past couple days I'm definitely leaning towards the 7D.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
Most completed eBay listings on 7D's are in the high $700's to $900, so yes, it's a bit cheaper...a bit. EP6 batteries are more expensive (even the off brand), CF cards are also up there particularly if you go with the more reliable Lexars. Also, shooting in raw will definitely use up batteries faster than in normal mode. Ultimately you're still running a hack on a camera which until fairly recently wasn't even supported. You'll be dealing with glitchy external monitoring, no playback, and the constant fear of not really knowing if the footage you just captured is corrupted.
I've seen used 7D's going for $500-$600 in my area on Craigslist, as well as on ebay. The EP6 batteries may be more expensive, but since I already have a bunch of them as it is, that's not really relevant. Buying a bunch of new batteries for a pocket cam is though... Haven't heard of the Lexars, most of the RAW test videos I have seen online use the Komputerbay CF cards, which are about $300 for 128gb on eBay right now.
Perhaps the glitches have improved since your experience. ML continues to get better, and if it were as terrible and likely to be corrupted as you say, no one would be filming with it.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
I'm not saying this because I pulled this info out of my ass, I'm saying it because I've shot extensively with the 7D and ultimately it just wasn't up to my work standards.
Okay. But if we're having a discussion about it, understand that your singular experience and your particular standards (and budget) are not everyone's - and it's rather annoying that you keep insisting I purchase something which costs twice as much that I'm not in the market for.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
I think the 5D3 is pretty much the only camera of the bunch which yield a workable reliability with somewhat reliable external monitoring, good ISO/noise ratio, no moire/aliasing, full 1080p resolution, a CF bus fast enough to handle audio and video simultaneously (will come in handy for sync purposes in post), and is the least prone to errors.
Wow, okay, we're back to the "just buy this 3.5k camera...." What part of 10k budget total was unclear?
There is no moire/aliasing with the proper filter. And good old fashioned clapboards will sync your audio fine. Sure the 7D is 10% shy of full HD resolution in raw. Am I going to pay 3x as much money for that extra 10%? No, I am not.
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
You're of course free to go and learn from your own mistakes, but you did ask for opinions.
Your words "What would be the best camera to go with?"
I think the polite response to my post would have been to acknowledge the information instead of immediately shooting down everything I shared...then again I suppose maybe I have different standards.
You are absolutely right, and you are certainly full of opinions.
There was nothing impolite about my responding to your suggestions with the facts of our production and budget. Just because I didn't do everything you said does not mean I was "shooting down everything" or a"know it all". Grow up. Telling me to spend 3.5K on a camera is like telling some kid hacking his T2i to buy an Alexa. "It's way better for RAW! It's totally worth it!" *roll eyes*
If you can show me a workable solution that is somewhere in the same $$$ ballpark, then I'm all ears.
Quote from: aace on May 12, 2014, 10:18:50 PM
Hi Aria,
I've been in and out of the forums daily checking up on the updates of the 7D raw functionality. I've even shared a little of my experiences specifically for the 7D. To be fair I've been using the Tragic Lantern builds but I expect the newer Magic Lantern builds are the same. You can check out the links below which might help you out without having to repeat myself or others. Hopefully these links help.
7D skipping frames - clarify write speeds
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11789.0
How many minutes of RAW footage does a 32gb or 64gb hold?
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11656.0
7D and the SanDisk 160 Mb/s
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11617.0
Workaround for pink/magenta highlights in overexposed footage
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11802.0
Thanks! :)
Everthing Midphase Said was actuate and true ! I agree with him on that :)
(Experience is the Greatest Teacher and there a Wealth of Knowledge Here Only if you Listen thou!)
You are just being argumentative the 7d is Ok ,
why upgrade to that when for about the same price you can get 5D2, full frame, 100% Stable with MLV+audio V2.0 or Raw v1.0 no crop-factor in 1:1 .
As much as I Promote the 5D2 , it suffer the same fate as the 7D Limited Hardware & capabilities . But it's the most stable, I plan on upgrade to a 5D3
As some as my budget allows for it, ever thou it with cost $$$$ it's a very Good and Smart investment that will out Last all other Canon EOS.
Even thou you are on a Budget, Make sure you do Your research and not jump to any conclusion and be honest with yourself ;D
I must do math differently then you guys, if $1000 is "about the same price as" $3500.
According to the chart, 5Dmk2 does not support exFat. Which means that lovely full HD raw is going to be limited to clips only a few seconds long unless I'm missing something...
That advice about listening goes both ways. Touting features which are a negative instead of a positive in my situation, is not going to convince me to get a far more expensive camera. Full frame means replacing all the glass I have already bought for crop factor... not something I want to do. And nothing screams "tacky DSLR footage" like razor-thing depth of field coming from a full frame like the 5dmk2. To each their own, but it's not my style.
Have you looked into selling the 5d3's after the shooting has finished? You won't lose too much value and you will have a far more stable setup.
Don't forget if you plan to shot in non-crop mode you will absolutely need a vaf filter for the 7d. It suffers quite badly from moire. Fortunately if you use the correct post-processing technique then you can mostly fix the ISO banding.
Also the 5Dii and 7d don't support exfat but the clips automatically split themselves at the 4gb mark.
Good luck!
Thanks Nick!
I believe the 7D and 60D have the same amount of moire... 60D is what I've been using so far. But there is a filter available if it causes problems...
According to the current capabilities chart on ML, 7D *does* support exFat, but 5Dmk2 does not. Did you have a different experience?
I'm not willing to risk going into 7k of debt for a couple of 5Dmk3 cameras in the hope I can sell them later :P The film budget is what has been raised from the producers/investors, not what's coming out of my pocket personally. I don't want to cross that line and be left holding the bag if those cams sell at a loss because some new awesome camera comes out in a year.
QuoteFull frame means replacing all the glass I have already bought for crop factor...
No not necessarily, you can shoot the 5D2 in crop mode, use your current glass, and have no aliasing or moire issues. You need to keep in mind that ML Raw does not necessarily use the full FOV of the sensor. FF isn't necessarily FF.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 13, 2014, 01:37:37 AM
According to the chart, 5Dmk2 does not support exFat. Which means that lovely full HD raw is going to be limited to clips only a few seconds long unless I'm missing something...
It looks like
nick.p beat me to it, but, you shouldn't have to worry about using exfat for the 7D. Once the file size reaches 4GB it creates a new file. I've shot about 4 and a half minutes of raw video without problems. The reason I cut it short is because of my card sizes. I only have (4) 64GB Transcend cards 1000x. I'd be weary of using exfat anyway. I've read in the forums that a guy had a clip that he was unable to open. I'm not sure if it was exfat or standard fat32 but the file, from what I understand was like 100GB. You can check it out here: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11815.msg114810;topicseen#msg114810
Also
midphase you said:
Quote from: Midphase on May 12, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
You'll be dealing with glitchy external monitoring, no playback, and the constant fear of not really knowing if the footage you just captured is corrupted.
I'm not sure if you're talking about playback in camera or on the computer (mac/pc) but it is definitely possible to preview your clips on both the camera and computer. On your camera make sure you enable the mlv_play module and hit the play button to play the files back. It's not real time, it's raw for crying out loud, but at least you can check framing and what not. You can even delete takes you don't like. Quick menu button! As for playback on your computer, you can playback the mlv files just fine with the MLRawViewer. Check that out here. http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9560.0
I have a Marshall monitor I've used twice with out issues shooting and monitoring raw. The "not knowing if the footage is corrupted or not" is somewhat true but it's the risk we're taking using nightly hacks.
Don't know about the crop mode for the 5dmk2 (I believe my lenses also have a 1.6X specific mount to the body), but if there is no exFat on the camera the length of all RAW files would be severely limited :/
The aliasing/moire filter for the 7D is 295. Even with that a used 7D is still cheaper than a used 5dmk2. Any other advantages to having a 5dmk2 that aren't purely a stylistic choice (such as ultra-shallow DOF, full frame sensor, etc?)
Quote from: aace on May 13, 2014, 03:00:09 AM
It looks like nick.p beat me to it, but, you shouldn't have to worry about using exfat for the 7D. Once the file size reaches 4GB it creates a new file. I've shot about 4 and a half minutes of raw video without problems. The reason I cut it short is because of my card sizes. I only have (4) 64GB Transcend cards 1000x. I'd be weary of using exfat anyway. I've read in the forums that a guy had a clip that he was unable to open. I'm not sure if it was exfat or standard fat32 but the file, from what I understand was like 100GB. You can check it out here: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11815.msg114810;topicseen#msg114810
That's good to know! So do you just line up all the 4GB files together in your NLE and they fit together perfectly, or is there a program that stitches them together for one long clip? Since RAW is about 5GB per minute, I imagine we'd have a ton of split-up-clips for a feature's worth of shooting scenes. That might get rather annoying....
Well if we don't know that exFat caused the problem or fat32, and exFat allows unlimited file lengths, I think it's the better option. Thoughts?
Quote from: aace on May 13, 2014, 03:00:09 AM
Also midphase you said:
I'm not sure if you're talking about playback in camera or on the computer (mac/pc) but it is definitely possible to preview your clips on both the camera and computer. On your camera make sure you enable the mlv_play module and hit the play button to play the files back. It's not real time, it's raw for crying out loud, but at least you can check framing and what not. You can even delete takes you don't like. Quick menu button! As for playback on your computer, you can playback the mlv files just fine with the MLRawViewer. Check that out here. http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9560.0
I have a Marshall monitor I've used twice with out issues shooting and monitoring raw. The "not knowing if the footage is corrupted or not" is somewhat true but it's the risk we're taking using nightly hacks.
You know this whole complaint about playback just makes me laugh because it wasn't long ago at all that NO ONE had playback for anything, because actual film had to be processed first. Which means that Orson Welles didn't have a single moment of using playback when making Citizen Kane. And Godfather was made without playback. And yes, sometimes a mistake was made, something wasn't in focus, the wrong chemicals were used, a scene had to be reshot, etc. So what? It's part of film making. When did we become so spoiled that we absolutely must have real time playback, RAW digital files, sound and picture in the same device, etc? It's ridiculous to complain about this stuff when simple no-budget solutions (like a clapboard) have been around a hundred years for film makers.
I have a feeling Midphase used an older and less stable version of ML on his 7D, went through the ringer trying to shoot with it, and now insists that no one else try raw filming on the 7D with grasping-at-straws arguments. I haven't heard any convincing, insurmountable reason yet why the 7D is not suited for shooting scenes in RAW with ML in it's current state. If you had told me "I tried it and my camera exploded" of course I wouldn't do it. But "oh you can't do playback"... that's just whining.
On another note, great to hear you can still delete clips in RAW if you know the take is bad. With only 30 minutes of recording time on a 128GB card, every deleted take counts! :))
I just came back from a interview a few hours ago and on my 5D Mark2 @1872x936 24p+audio with Lexar 1000x 64GB shot 15,419 frames = 10.71 Minutes
And 7 Minutes (28GB) on the 32GB card . All in with File splitting to a total of 77GB with the 15,419 was 45GB alone.
Crop mode is 3X your focal length e.g. 30mm=90mm So yes you 1.6 crop lens will work just fine.
And in crop mode you can do 2k (2048x852 continuous @ 24p)
Aria,
As I said, you already seem to have all the answers so I'm not quite sure why you even posted here. Go back and read your own original post before you get your panties in a bunch and tell me to grow up.
Nowhere in your original post do you mention your camera budget, and just because you're making a no-budget $10k feature, doesn't necessarily imply that you don't have some other money saved up with which to buy your gear (or perhaps know a DP or two with their own set up).
You specifically asked for advice on what to shoot with, and you got it. Once you receive your response, just be thankful and then do what is best for you rather than argue as to why the advice isn't good enough.
Best of luck with your feature, sounds to me like one way or another it's shaping up to be a good learning experience for you.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 13, 2014, 03:30:28 AM
Well if we don't know that exFat caused the problem or fat32, and exFat allows unlimited file lengths, I think it's the better option. Thoughts?
I don't see the point to using exfat. The files are split in camera but the camera will continue to recording until you stop it or the card fills up. When you open the MLV file it will playback all of the split files as if they were one large file. I use MLRawViewer to playback and encode my raw files. MLRawViewer allows you to convert MLV/RAW/DNG files to ProRes (on mac/windows) or you can just extract the DNG files to separate folders.
I uploaded a video to Vimeo showing one of the issues with MLRawViewer here: https://vimeo.com/94709318. The issue I had was the highlights, for an intentionally over exposed shot, weren't encoded properly. The highlights simply made the clip unusable. Baldand, the developer for MLRawViewer, got a hold of the video and is working to fix that issue. The great thing about MLRawViewer is that it can batch encode all your raw files to ProRes, drastically reducing the file size and allowing you to edit. It does take some time to encode but you can think of it somewhat like dailies for you film nerds. It made 782GB of raw video to 230GB of ProRes video.
Quote from: reddeercity on May 13, 2014, 03:35:36 AM
I just came back from a interview a few hours ago and on my 5D Mark2 @1872x936 24p+audio with Lexar 1000x 64GB shot 15,419 frames = 10.71 Minutes
And 7 Minutes (28GB) on the 32GB card . All in with File splitting to a total of 77GB with the 15,419 was 45GB alone.
Crop mode is 3X your focal length e.g. 30mm=90mm So yes you 1.6 crop lens will work just fine.
And in crop mode you can do 2k (2048x852 continuous @ 24p)
Cool - so then why is the exFat capability such an important factor? I'm confused... if the 5Dmk2 can shoot long takes either way... hmmm.....
If a 30 ends up being a 90, how the heck am I supposed to get a nice wide angle without buying new lenses? :/ That's what I've been saying. Also I know that some of my lenses are specifically incompatible with full-frame sensor DSLRs, they were made for 1.6x crop cameras and mounts.
Quote from: Midphase on May 13, 2014, 04:15:21 AM
I'm not quite sure why you even posted here. Go back and read your own original post before you get your panties in a bunch and tell me to grow up.
Nowhere in your original post do you mention your camera budget, and just because you're making a no-budget $10k feature, doesn't necessarily imply that you don't have some other money saved up with which to buy your gear (or perhaps know a DP or two with their own set up).
If you're not sure, feel free to leave the conversation at any time. I don't know how many times I have to say which cameras are completely out of the budget in this thread, before it sinks in that no secret stash of money, or amazing free DP's are waiting helpfully around the corner.
Oh and my panties are just fine, thank-you for checking.
Quote from: aace on May 13, 2014, 04:29:31 AM
I don't see the point to using exfat. The files are split in camera but the camera will continue to recording until you stop it or the card fills up. When you open the MLV file it will playback all of the split files as if they were one large file. I use MLRawViewer to playback and encode my raw files. MLRawViewer allows you to convert MLV/RAW/DNG files to ProRes (on mac/windows) or you can just extract the DNG files to separate folders.
I uploaded a video to Vimeo showing one of the issues with MLRawViewer here: https://vimeo.com/94709318. The issue I had was the highlights, for an intentionally over exposed shot, weren't encoded properly. The highlights simply made the clip unusable. Baldand, the developer for MLRawViewer, got a hold of the video and is working to fix that issue. The great thing about MLRawViewer is that it can batch encode all your raw files to ProRes, drastically reducing the file size and allowing you to edit. It does take some time to encode but you can think of it somewhat like dailies for you film nerds. It made 782GB of raw video to 230GB of ProRes video.
Well I look forward to giving it a try myself and seeing how it all works! Curious - why the need for an extra piece of software? Doesn't PremierePro natively support RAW files at this point?
Quote from: ariaelf on May 13, 2014, 05:51:12 AM
Well I look forward to giving it a try myself and seeing how it all works! Curious - why the need for an extra piece of software? Doesn't PremierePro natively support RAW files at this point?
Premiere supports DNG files yes. You will still need software to convert the mlv/raw files to DNG in order to use them. If you're going the DNG route, you will need extra software to extract the DNGs. If you're going for native mlv/raw into Premiere you will still need extra software to import mlv/raw to Premiere. Magic Lantern's raw files are not supported in Premiere without plugins. Either way you will need extra software. I don't want to come off as rude but if you didn't know that you really should dig a little deeper to fully understand what you're committing to.
Quote from: aace on May 13, 2014, 06:02:09 AM
I don't want to come off as rude but if you didn't know that you really should dig a little deeper to fully understand what you're committing to.
What exactly do you think I'm doing here, talking to peeps like you on the ML forums? LoL
There is a first time for everything. It's my first time with RAW.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 13, 2014, 09:04:54 AM
What exactly do you think I'm doing here, talking to peeps like you on the ML forums? LoL
There is a first time for everything. It's my first time with RAW.
Fair enough. I'll tell you the Magic Lantern raw workflow is not as straight forward as Black Magic's Cinema cameras workflow but the quality of the footage definitely holds up and is certainly worth it. I highly recommend you start testing the workflow now with your 60D to get a feel for what you'll be working with. In your spare time check out this video too: https://vimeo.com/70637970 (Magic Lantern - RAW - Workflow Tutorial). This workflow involves extracting the DNGs from the mlv/raw files. I'm not a huge fan of the DNG workflow but it's really up to the editor.
I have both the 60D and 7D and both are equipped with the Mosaic Engineers anti-aliasing filters you were talking about. I'll tell you that tracking focus does get a little harder when you use that filter. The minimum focusing distance changes because you're adding more glass in front of the sensor. It does however eliminate most of the aliasing problems.
Like I also mentioned if you're going to be shooting long takes, there is that possibility that you'll lose that take. You seem to already know that's possible, so no need to beat that dead horse again. I haven't shot 10 minutes straight yet but now I'm curious to see if it is reliable.
You bet!
Thanks for those points about the filters, and other details. Good to know.
Recently installed ML RAW on both my 60D's and am about to test it out and see how it all works in post as you suggest. I've also been looking at RAW short films and tests shot on the 7D online, and reading on the workflows that different people used. Seem to be quite a few ways to get it done. People have used the DNG files, RAWMagic, ProRes422HQ.... all kinds of things. And then of course a wide variety of color correcting & color grading software and editors. What's your favorite way to do it?
Why do you want to shoot raw?
LOLZ may be impressive to 12 year olds. But it does not add useful content to the discussion.
Neither does stating the obvious.
Asking someone why they want to shoot RAW in the LM RAW forum is a total troll move.
It would seem obvious as to why you want to shoot raw, yes. But apparently you are incapable of giving the benefit of doubt.
What is this "LM RAW" forum you speak of? Unless I'm missing something obvious, this is the General Chat section, of the Magic Lantern forums!
Quote from: Audionut on May 13, 2014, 09:29:58 PM
It would seem obvious as to why you want to shoot raw, yes. But apparently you are incapable of giving the benefit of doubt.
What is this "LM RAW" forum you speak of? Unless I'm missing something obvious, this is the General Chat section, of the Magic Lantern forums!
My original post was in the LM RAW forum. Then it was moved by a moderator to the General Chat. Odd.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 13, 2014, 07:39:29 PM
People have used the DNG files, RAWMagic, ProRes422HQ.... all kinds of things. And then of course a wide variety of color correcting & color grading software and editors. What's your favorite way to do it?
I prefer working with video files that I can play outside of the editor. So ProRes or Cineform are my preferred way of editing.
Also, Audionut asked what is "LM Raw". He was referring to the misspelling of the abbreviated ML as in Magic Lantern, not Lantern Magic.
Quote from: aace on May 14, 2014, 05:08:04 PM
I prefer working with video files that I can play outside of the editor. So ProRes or Cineform are my preferred way of editing.
Good points, I'll keep that in mind!
Has anyone here had a chance to use both the 50D and the 7D with ML? I'm curious to know what the differences are, for such a huge price difference. I understand there is no audio recording on the 50D, but that's not an issue for me - film sound is always recorded separately anyway.
Quote from: aace on May 14, 2014, 05:09:54 PM
Also, Audionut asked what is "LM Raw". He was referring to the misspelling of the abbreviated ML as in Magic Lantern, not Lantern Magic.
Bust jecause I get things bass ackwards sometimes, doesn't mean I dave hyslexia....
To answer your question regarding ExFat and Fat32. It was an issue when ML RAW was first introduced cause then you were limited to 4gb clips.
The only difference between ExFat and Fat32 today, is that Exfat makes one huge file and Fat32 splits them up in 4gb files. Which is no issue at all, because all RAW or MLV processors today will automatically combine the 4gb files in to one file before extracting the DNGs.
Then you can delete the split files and keep the combined one to better keep track of your originals.
Here is a tip for you Aria. Start working with ML Raw now on your 60D! You seriously do not want to start a shoot with ML Raw without having experienced the quirks and bugs first... You need to be in the shit a couple of times so that you know what to do if (when) ML suddenly locks your camera.
The workflow is hard and slow, but it is worth it. Learn it.
Moving this back to the raw recording section, as the OP has advised she is more concerned about the raw recording aspect, then which camera to buy aspect.
Quote from: Kharak on May 15, 2014, 08:31:57 AM
To answer your question regarding ExFat and Fat32. It was an issue when ML RAW was first introduced cause then you were limited to 4gb clips.
The only difference between ExFat and Fat32 today, is that Exfat makes one huge file and Fat32 splits them up in 4gb files. Which is no issue at all, because all RAW or MLV processors today will automatically combine the 4gb files in to one file before extracting the DNGs.
Then you can delete the split files and keep the combined one to better keep track of your originals.
THANK-YOU for explaining that. Now I understand...
Okay, I am still curious though as to whether the 7D has ExFat or not, because I have seen two spreadsheets on the forums (one in the "current capabilities" thread, which states the 7D *does* have ExFat) and this one, which states it *does not* have ExFat... which is it?? :P
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgQ2MOkAZTFHdFFIcFp1d0R5TzVPTVJXOEVyUndteGc#gid=5
It seems to me that having one huge file for a long take, as opposed to a bunch of little ones would be less confusing, even though they will eventually all be combined. Although on the other hand, maybe ExFat is more "buggy" and therefore should be avoided. What are the current recommendations?
Quote from: Kharak on May 15, 2014, 08:31:57 AM
Here is a tip for you Aria. Start working with ML Raw now on your 60D! You seriously do not want to start a shoot with ML Raw without having experienced the quirks and bugs first... You need to be in the shit a couple of times so that you know what to do if (when) ML suddenly locks your camera.
The workflow is hard and slow, but it is worth it. Learn it.
You bet - I just wanted to have some ballpark of "best practices" for ML, and a better idea of which camera would be suitable for this project and budget, before making more costly mistakes. It's a shame to have bought two EOS 60D's with ML installed, and only then realize the recording limit is all of six seconds.... not exactly workable for a feature film.
I'm still not sure whether a 50D would be sufficient, or a 7D would be better. I guess the continuous recording resolution is a bit less on the 50D, and no audio track with RAW (don't need it) so
any other negatives for the 50D? Perhaps it could be a "B cam" to the 7D when we need two cameras shooting at once. A used 50D is probably half the price of a used 7D.
I have been gearing up to be able to handle RAW, with a new video card, two 4TB external hard drives, just ordered the Transcend USB 3.0 Super Speed Multi-Card Reader, and two Komputerbay 64GB CF 1000X 150MB/s Extreme Speed UDMA 7 cards. Currently I only have USB 2.0 on my computer so that will need to be upgraded as well, or we'll be transferring files all day after shooting :P
I'll be testing the workflow with the 60D while waiting for the 7D(?) to arrive.
PS. What *DO* you do when ML locks your camera Kharak? :)
Quote from: ariaelf on May 15, 2014, 07:59:40 PM
PS. What *DO* you do when ML locks your camera Kharak? :)
Take out the batteries.
When in doubt, take the battery out.
I'm not sure why exFAT has suddenly earned a reputation as being less reliable. AFAIK, there has only been 1 reported issue with exFAT, and that being when recording over 100GB in a single file.
exFAT vs FAT32 is a minor post processing issue (if you could even call it that, IMO). The performance of either, in camera, is identical. Personally, I would not base any purchasing decision on this.
You're in the market for 2 cameras, correct?
Looking at the spreadsheet (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6215.0), it would appear that the 50D has slightly less maximum writing speed, and less resolution. However, they both use CF cards. Considering that you are budget conscious, you may consider purchasing 1 of either camera. The 7D for the slightly better feature set, and the 50D as a good solid well priced backup/secondary.
Quote from: Audionut on May 15, 2014, 08:18:29 PM
When in doubt, take the battery out.
I'm not sure why exFAT has suddenly earned a reputation as being less reliable. AFAIK, there has only been 1 reported issue with exFAT, and that being when recording over 100GB in a single file.
exFAT vs FAT32 is a minor post processing issue (if you could even call it that, IMO). The performance of either, in camera, is identical. Personally, I would not base any purchasing decision on this.
You're in the market for 2 cameras, correct?
Looking at the spreadsheet (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6215.0), it would appear that the 50D has slightly less maximum writing speed, and less resolution. However, they both use CF cards. Considering that you are budget conscious, you may consider purchasing 1 of either camera. The 7D for the slightly better feature set, and the 50D as a good solid well priced backup/secondary.
Yes, I agree - that's exactly what I was leaning towards.
This other spreadsheet is also floating around... and it has different figures. Which one is the accurate one? Quite a few differences in the 7D row.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgQ2MOkAZTFHdFFIcFp1d0R5TzVPTVJXOEVyUndteGc#gid=5
*EDIT* Okay, maybe that's the same spreadsheet but the image for it was saved from earlier, so a number of values have changed. The 7D went from red to blue...
I have read a number of things about exFat on these forums, some saying it caused problems, other saying it seemed to improve the write speed of the camera. Somewhere in the middle there must be the truth...
But then, is it even possible to use exFat formatted cards on the 7D? The charts don't agree. Someone give me a straight answer... (and no of course, the purchasing decision won't be based on that at all. Just curious.)
They are the same chart.
The image in the post I linked, is simply a screenshot of an earlier version of the spreadsheet. I recall this being advised in the thread. However, I have edited the first post of that thread, to make that more clear. :)
I asked why you want to shoot raw, because it brings quite a lot of problems with it.
I shot a short film with my 5d3 in raw, we had quite difficult circumstances that asked for quite long takes and we often had to repeat a shot so I went through the cf cards pretty quickly and could not even check if all the files had been recorded fine... (I did record a backup via HDMI to a recoder though...). The whole thing took place in a driving car, so it was really an unpractical situation, no data wrangler could help me with backups and file checking. (I had borrowed and rented around 10 cf cards and was switching all the time, some cards suddenly didn't perform like they should), the external recorder was running a 256gb SSD, recorded 1080p 422 10bit and hold the whole day...
Of course the resolution is almost perfect 1080p (if you keep the iso low), you can recover the highlights and shadows (if you keep the iso low) and change the white balance to your likings. Special effects like keying or changing the color of whole objects is also is made possible by the data the raw files offer.
But in the end the look of the film will be more effected by the colors and light you chose in front of the camera. So I would prefer to shoot with a another camera, that offers true 1080p resolution and lets say a prores 422 10bit codec for better gradeability, that records more than only 15minutes per memory card and does not have all those funny quirks the ml raw cameras have...
Quote from: ariaelf on May 15, 2014, 08:54:32 PM
But then, is it even possible to use exFat formatted cards on the 7D? The charts don't agree. Someone give me a straight answer... (and no of course, the purchasing decision won't be based on that at all. Just curious.)
Doesn't work, AFAIK. It certainly didn't work for me when I tried it on my 7D.
A few more things to consider. If you decide to get a 50D and 7D you will need to purchase batteries for the 50D as they are different from the 60D and 7D. You do have the option to get a power adapter that works on AC power http://www.amazon.com/Canon-ACK-E6AC-Adapter-Mark-Digital/dp/B001KBZ3PK. Also raw obviously produces large files. You're gonna need a lot of cards, some way to dump the cards between takes, and a ton of hard drive space. I easily filled a 1TB hard drive with the MLV files alone. Be mindful of the storage needs of raw when making your purchases.
I have to confirm.. but I am 99% sure that the exFat cards work on 7D. It still splits the files into 4GB chunks but I remember I did a short in RAW and the cards were formatted as exFat as I didnt have the option for Fat32, I am 99% sure again...
Quote from: Steven on May 15, 2014, 10:07:41 PM
I asked why you want to shoot raw, because it brings quite a lot of problems with it.
I realize that, but the end result is worth it.
Full latitude in color grading, highlight recovery, VFX, greenscreen, image quality... long list of benefits to shooting in RAW when making a feature if you really want it to look professional.
Quote from: Steven on May 15, 2014, 10:07:41 PM
Of course the resolution is almost perfect 1080p (if you keep the iso low), you can recover the highlights and shadows (if you keep the iso low) and change the white balance to your likings. Special effects like keying or changing the color of whole objects is also is made possible by the data the raw files offer.
But in the end the look of the film will be more effected by the colors and light you chose in front of the camera. So I would prefer to shoot with a another camera, that offers true 1080p resolution and lets say a prores 422 10bit codec for better gradeability, that records more than only 15minutes per memory card and does not have all those funny quirks the ml raw cameras have...
Well I'd prefer to shoot with an Alexa, but that's not happening in the immediate future... ;)
Quote from: Audionut on May 15, 2014, 09:09:42 PM
They are the same chart.
The image in the post I linked, is simply a screenshot of an earlier version of the spreadsheet. I recall this being advised in the thread. However, I have edited the first post of that thread, to make that more clear. :)
Yah, I figured that out shortly after I asked the question, haha... darn those screencaps!
Quote from: aace on May 16, 2014, 05:16:42 AM
A few more things to consider. If you decide to get a 50D and 7D you will need to purchase batteries for the 50D as they are different from the 60D and 7D. You do have the option to get a power adapter that works on AC power http://www.amazon.com/Canon-ACK-E6AC-Adapter-Mark-Digital/dp/B001KBZ3PK. Also raw obviously produces large files. You're gonna need a lot of cards, some way to dump the cards between takes, and a ton of hard drive space. I easily filled a 1TB hard drive with the MLV files alone. Be mindful of the storage needs of raw when making your purchases.
Oh, oh, different batteries? I don't like that :P Of course the lower resolution bothers me more. Maybe I'll have to borrow a second 7D for the days where it would be better to have two cams. I have a friend who owns one, but it's brand new and he's scared to put ML on it so far... I bet when I do it first, and show him what the footage looks like, he'll jump on board though ;)
I have ordered two 64GB 1000x Komputerbay cards to start with, which will give us about 30 minutes of recording time. If we are mindful of what we shoot, and delete bad takes in camera, that should be a realistic amount of shooting time to get us through half the day, or a short day, before dumping the files during the lunch break. I will see if more cards need to be ordered depending on how things go. I keep in mind that most of the time on set is not spent running a camera, but setting up lights, talking to the actors between takes, doing hair/make-up/costumes and rehearsing the blocking. Then of course there is the driving between locations, and the staging. If we actually shot a full 30 minutes worth of footage in a 4-6 hour chunk of work time, I'd be thrilled.
Basically, with the file sizes being so huge, and the cards so expensive, I think of this as the digital equivalent of
film film. You don't just let 35mm film roll on and on as people mess around. You really prep for a take before you "hit record." Of course with 35mm film you can't just hit a delete button after a flubbed line and get that cost of film back. So there are still huge advantages to high end digital video. The film analogy is something I would also bring up about everyone stressing they can't check the footage right away. This ability to check the footage instantly, is very new as far as the history of cinema goes. If directors have done it "blind" for 100 years, then we can step up to the plate as well. (Or step over to the computer on a break, and check it there. :P)
For storage space I have two 4 TB external hard drives. One to hold the data, one to back up the data.
Last thing I really need to get/upgrade is USB 3.0 connection for the computer. Currently it only has USB 2.0, and the transfers would take way too long.
When you extract the DNG's from the RAW or MLV file, You'll really feel like working with the digital equivalent of a film roll.
Frame by frame ;)
I love it!
I wasn't referring to an Alexa, rather a black magic or something similar (but all the cheap solutions bring tons of their own special quirks that have to be dealt with, so sticking with a system you already know sounds reasonable).
So anyhow, looks like you have a good background and approach (handle it like a shoot on film stock).
So the things left to say would be: Testing the two cameras a lot, so you know all the problem scenarios.
Recording raw while monitoring via HDMI might also behave differently, then without (does it even work at all?).
Shutting down the live view when ever you can, especially on a well lit set the cameras heat up quickly and I think i noticed an increased noise due to risen temperature on the 5d3 and the 7d has one of the worst sensors...
Maybe check at what ISOs the 50d and 7d have similar noise patterns for better matching of intercut shots.
When backing up, use a checksum tool, might save you a lot of trouble...
ML Raw still produces bad frames sometimes, you don't find out until you checked the recorded files...
Komputerbay cards do not seem to be very reliable, some users say they run rockstable, some report corrupt files and some even corrupted cards that lose the entire data. Extensive testing of the cards beforehand will save you from losing material but even then a risk will stay...
Due to the lower resolution than 1080p you will not need the fastest card available so borrowing cards from friends/colleages or a rental becomes an option. Take a closer look at the Sandisk 32+GB 120,90 and 60MB/s cards too. Transcend 1000x also perform alright.
MLRawViewer is a cool tool to take a quick look at shots taken directly from the camera.
For safety I would only use USB 3 card readers (with newest firmware) and stick to one reader only that is known to work, some UDMA7 cards get corrupted by readers.
I guess many of my points were already considered.
Aria,
I applaud you for asking questions. That is a good start. But in your responses to suggestions offered, it seems clear to me that you might want to re-think exactly how this no-budget, under $10k feature is going to work from a producing perspective. In my opinion...with the budget you have, you are setting yourself up to fail. And as a producer...you always should be setting yourself (and your team) up to succeed.
Some have suggested to you ways to acquire more expensive cameras for shorter periods of time that would give you better results. 1 was to rent. Which you suggested was not possible due to a 6 month shoot time. As a producer, when I hear 6 month shoot time my eyebrow gets raised. Some hundred million dollar tent-poles don't have a 6 month shoot time. Why is that necessary? Is this a documentary where you are following someone down the amazon river for half a year or something? Or is this a scripted feature?
I don't really care what the answer is...I am just posting things to think about.
I also think that in general...the best person to answer your questions are your DP. Or are you shooting, directing, producing, editing this whole thing yourself? If you are doing the one-person show here I would strongly encourage you to reconsider that as the beauty of filmmaking is that it is a team effort and the sum of the many creative parts will always make something better than any one part can do on their own. To know which camera is best to use...one really should read your script...have meetings to discuss shots and then decide which equipment can best capture what is needed. If your script is all shot in the bright sun in a desert setting...one camera might to. If it is all inside...perhaps a different one. If it is all on a green stage...then something else. Just looking at specs and dollar amounts alone will not get you the result you are hoping for which will lead to much frustration in Post.
Which leads me to Post-production.
So many filmmakers today fail to properly budget for post-production. They think once the film is shot and they get through production...that is all the money they need. Then they spend months in post-production hell learning that post production is usually MORE expensive than production. Especially with regards to sound. It is a fact that sound is more important to the audience perception of a film than picture. Our brains will forgive not-so perfect images (almost rationalizing them as creative choices)...but WILL NOT forgive poor sound. You could shoot on an iPhone and if the dialogue is clear and the sound design is massive and enveloping...people will be wowed, entertained and moved. But then again...sound is getting away from the point of this forum's focus.
My point is...you may need to re-think from a producer perspective how you are going to solve the problems in shooting your script. That may lead you understand that a $10k is not adequate and was not put together with proper research. Perhaps other fundraising efforts might need to be approached. (Do they even teach how to raise money to young filmmakers any more??) It may also lead you to decide that more people need to be involved in the process...like a DP you are close to and not an internet forum of folks you don't know. And it may also lead you to re-thiking how to shoot this feature on a timeline that would allow you to rent equipment and not have to buy it. Which means re-thinking a 180 day shoot.
I wish you the best on this project. Know that I share these thoughts not to discourage you...but to stir thoughts about possibly looking at things a bit differently. As a director, one is all about the creative process and guiding the ship. As a producer, one should be about solving problems, understanding limitations and figuring out what you have to give up on one side of a budget to get what you need on the other. But don't get yourself into a corner where the "budget" is all spent in production and nothing is left for post...promotion (a website, festival submissions...screeners, etc...).
Quote from: SC_Trojan on May 16, 2014, 08:17:59 PM
... it seems clear to me that you might want to re-think ... you are setting yourself up to fail. And as a producer...you always should be setting yourself (and your team) up to succeed.
Some have suggested to you ways to acquire more expensive cameras for shorter periods of time that would give you better results. 1 was to rent. Which you suggested was not possible due to a 6 month shoot time. As a producer, when I hear 6 month shoot time my eyebrow gets raised. Some hundred million dollar tent-poles don't have a 6 month shoot time. Why is that necessary? Is this a documentary where you are following someone down the amazon river for half a year or something? Or is this a scripted feature?
I don't really care what the answer is...I am just posting things to think about.
I never said we were shooting 180 days
in a row. Don't make ridiculous assumptions.
You accuse me of being
incompetent as a producer, but you "don't really care what the answer is" to your questions? Wow. Nice... that's really a great way to deal with people: judge them first, and walk away before the truth has a chance to correct your prejudices! That way, you can
never be wrong! ::)
Actually it's fine that you "don't care" what the answer is, because frankly I don't feel the need to explain myself to a stranger on the internet who knows absolutely NOTHING about the circumstances of this production, but feels entitled to criticize anyway. The proof is in the pudding, and I'll let the film speak for itself when it's completed.
Quote from: SC_Trojan on May 16, 2014, 08:17:59 PM
...the best person to answer your questions are your DP. Or are you shooting, directing, producing, editing this whole thing yourself? If you are doing the one-person show here I would strongly encourage you to reconsider that as the beauty of filmmaking is that it is a team effort and the sum of the many creative parts will always make something better than any one part can do on their own.
First of all, I didn't come to the ML forums asking technical and specific questions so that someone
who's opinion has not been vetted by an impressive list of IMDB credits, could talk down to me about the "beauty of filmmaking" as a collaborative art form.
Second, perhaps you have heard the word "auteur." Arguably the greatest directors of all time wore multiple hats across departments, as DP/director, Producer/director, writer/director, director/editor, director/composer, director/lead actor, etc. Orson Welles and Charlie Chaplin among many others.
Third, your presumption that if a film maker directs and produces, or directs and is behind the camera, they have somehow failed to leverage the "team" aspect of film making, is a
gross injustice to the dozens of actors, crew, assistants, set designers, costumers, special effects people, technicians, and community supporters involved in any feature film.
It doesn't matter if a director wears one hat, or six, a feature film is NEVER, EVER a "one person show." Quote from: SC_Trojan on May 16, 2014, 08:17:59 PM
So many filmmakers today fail to properly budget for post-production. They think once the film is shot and they get through production...that is all the money they need. Then they spend months in post-production hell learning that post production is usually MORE expensive than production. Especially with regards to sound. It is a fact that sound is more important to the audience perception of a film than picture. Our brains will forgive not-so perfect images (almost rationalizing them as creative choices)...but WILL NOT forgive poor sound. You could shoot on an iPhone and if the dialogue is clear and the sound design is massive and enveloping...people will be wowed, entertained and moved. But then again...sound is getting away from the point of this forum's focus.
No kidding. Everything you've said has been away from the point of this forum's focus.
And again, I am really not interested in being dressed down by a stranger because "so many film makers" fail to properly budget for post-production or don't understand the importance of sound. Please don't assume things about me, or this production without actually having ANY facts. Good manners would be first asking a question ("how are you doing your sound?" or "how are you doing your post production?") not presuming I am an idiot because you've run into some idiots.
I'm not going to waste what little free time I have answering your implied questions/points, because
I am not on trial here for how I'm co-producing this film. Frankly, if you were in my shoes, I doubt you could shoot a 30 second commercial for $10,000, much less an indie feature.
I've personally had friends who shot no-budget features for a mere $3,000 over the course of 2+ years, and another year in post, and won festival awards. I can't IMAGINE what you might have told them had you run into them before they got started. The world would have never enjoyed the beauty of their work. #indiepride
Quote from: Steven on May 16, 2014, 04:41:51 PM
I wasn't referring to an Alexa, rather a black magic or something similar (but all the cheap solutions bring tons of their own special quirks that have to be dealt with, so sticking with a system you already know sounds reasonable).
My dreams of an Alexa are entirely tongue-in-cheek ;)
I looked into the Black Magic Pocket Cam, and it's unworkable. Batteries must be recharged *IN* the camera. It takes much longer to recharge the battery, then to use it up... so... how does one go shoot for 12 hours, then try to do it all again the next day? Buy a second Black Magic Pocket Cam to use as a battery charging station? LoL. I don't know what the designers over there at BM are smoking.
Quote from: Steven on May 16, 2014, 04:41:51 PM
So the things left to say would be: Testing the two cameras a lot, so you know all the problem scenarios.
Recording raw while monitoring via HDMI might also behave differently, then without (does it even work at all?).
Shutting down the live view when ever you can, especially on a well lit set the cameras heat up quickly and I think i noticed an increased noise due to risen temperature on the 5d3 and the 7d has one of the worst sensors...
Maybe check at what ISOs the 50d and 7d have similar noise patterns for better matching of intercut shots.
When backing up, use a checksum tool, might save you a lot of trouble...
Yep, lots of testing ahead. I'll keep an eye on the overheating issue - it's strange that some people report it, while others say they've never had a problem. I wonder what's up with that.
The 60D and 7D have identical sensors (from what I understand) so
the ISO pattern should be the same. The price difference is for better rapid-fire photography on the 7D, the better build of the body, the weatherproofing, etc.
I'll look into a checksum tool.
Quote from: Steven on May 16, 2014, 04:41:51 PM
Komputerbay cards do not seem to be very reliable, some users say they run rockstable, some report corrupt files and some even corrupted cards that lose the entire data. Extensive testing of the cards beforehand will save you from losing material but even then a risk will stay...
Due to the lower resolution than 1080p you will not need the fastest card available so borrowing cards from friends/colleages or a rental becomes an option. Take a closer look at the Sandisk 32+GB 120,90 and 60MB/s cards too. Transcend 1000x also perform alright.
True, but as many on the forums have done, I'll send back any Komputerbay cards that are duds for replacements. The 2x or 3x price difference is just too much for Sandisk or Lexar.
Quote from: Steven on May 16, 2014, 04:41:51 PM
For safety I would only use USB 3 card readers (with newest firmware) and stick to one reader only that is known to work, some UDMA7 cards get corrupted by readers.
I guess many of my points were already considered.
Just ordered the Transcend USB 3.0 reader that was recommended elsewhere on the forum. Also ordered the needed USB 3.0 upgrade for the computer. Yay :)
True, but it's always good to double check and point out any potential problems ahead of time. I really appreciate knowing the potential issues thanks to you all who've used RAW on the 7D. I'm sure it will save me a lot of troubleshooting time.
Quote from: Kharak on May 16, 2014, 01:20:29 PM
When you extract the DNG's from the RAW or MLV file, You'll really feel like working with the digital equivalent of a film roll.
Frame by frame ;)
I love it!
Oh yah ;) Love your siggy. "once you go raw you never go back" 8)
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PM
I never said we were shooting 180 days in a row. Don't make ridiculous assumptions.
Great...then you can rent and don't have to buy. Unless you are just looking for an excuse to buy.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMYou accuse me of being incompetent as a producer, but you "don't really care what the answer is" to your questions? Wow. Nice... that's really a great way to deal with people: judge them first, and walk away before the truth has a chance to correct your prejudices! That way, you can never be wrong! ::)
Nope...never said you were incompetent. You read into it what you chose to. Probably on the defensive from previous posts on this thread that also pointed out some things you seemingly don't want to hear.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMActually it's fine that you "don't care" what the answer is, because frankly I don't feel the need to explain myself to a stranger on the internet who knows absolutely NOTHING about the circumstances of this production, but feels entitled to criticize anyway. The proof is in the pudding, and I'll let the film speak for itself when it's completed.
If I had a dime for ever time I have heard that one...seriously. I am just going to attribute this whole response to the hubris of the young.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMFirst of all, I didn't come to the ML forums asking technical and specific questions so that someone who's opinion has not been vetted by an impressive list of IMDB credits, could talk down to me about the "beauty of filmmaking" as a collaborative art form.
Fair enough. But your reactions to previous folks when coming on a forum...asking for opinions on your "feature" and then dismissing all of the opinions given to you about the problems at hand only serves to show your lack of experience. You have shown that you don't really want to know what people think but just want some stranger "permission" to go buy some cameras you have already decided to buy.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMSecond, perhaps you have heard the word "auteur." Arguably the greatest directors of all time wore multiple hats across departments, as DP/director, Producer/director, writer/director, director/editor, director/composer, director/lead actor, etc. Orson Welles and Charlie Chaplin among many others.
Trust me...your responses show you are no Orson Welles or Charlie Chaplin. But maybe your ability to make a silent film with your $10 grand will be somewhat of a comparison. It is the movie BUSINESS...not movie art.
ok...THAT was a snarky response. But the best way to avoid snarky from those you have asked opinions of is to show some humility.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMThird, your presumption that if a film maker directs and produces, or directs and is behind the camera, they have somehow failed to leverage the "team" aspect of film making, is a gross injustice to the dozens of actors, crew, assistants, set designers, costumers, special effects people, technicians, and community supporters involved in any feature film. It doesn't matter if a director wears one hat, or six, a feature film is NEVER, EVER a "one person show."
It does matter...if you want to climb the ladder in Hollywood at all. No bond company would approve a single person being the head of every major dept. Doesn't work that way.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMNo kidding. Everything you've said has been away from the point of this forum's focus.
Not really...your feature film's budget (especially with all of the folks you listed saying my comments were doing an injustice to) is woefully inadequate. That says a lot. Here is a tip. Find a way to pay your people and get the stuff for free. Not the other way around.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMAnd again, I am really not interested in being dressed down by a stranger because "so many film makers" fail to properly budget for post-production or don't understand the importance of sound. Please don't assume things about me, or this production without actually having ANY facts. Good manners would be first asking a question ("how are you doing your sound?" or "how are you doing your post production?") not presuming I am an idiot because you've run into some idiots.
ok...I did make some assumptions. Enlighten me. How much of your $10 grand is locked away for Post-Production?
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMI'm not going to waste what little free time I have answering your implied questions/points, because I am not on trial here for how I'm co-producing this film. Frankly, if you were in my shoes, I doubt you could shoot a 30 second commercial for $10,000, much less an indie feature.
Is it week 1 of American Idol here or what.
Quote from: ariaelf on May 16, 2014, 09:49:16 PMI've personally had friends who shot no-budget features for a mere $3,000 over the course of 2+ years, and another year in post, and won festival awards. I can't IMAGINE what you might have told them had you run into them before they got started. The world would have never enjoyed the beauty of their work. #indiepride
No one gives a crap about festival awards. Seriously. They give a crap about your ability to handle a team...not squander someone else's millions of dollars, and make money. Filmmaking is a highly mechanical, industrialized process.
People have given you some great ideas about why you should not use the 7D with ML....or shoot raw...or that your feature budget appears inadequate. At least taking some of those responses into some self-reflection might do some good.
Have fun with your $10k.
keep it classy guys.
Quote from: SC_Trojan on May 17, 2014, 12:48:52 AM
Nope...never said you were incompetent. You read into it what you chose to.
Quote from: Audionut on May 15, 2014, 07:32:12 PM
It is only obnoxious, because you choose to respond that way.
Members here spend their free time to offer advice. Unlike a number of other forums, I believe that ML contains mostly helpful members, who have better things to do, then going around annoying other people.
Quote from: Midphase on May 13, 2014, 04:15:21 AM
You specifically asked for advice on what to shoot with, and you got it. Once you receive your response, just be thankful and then do what is best for you rather than argue as to why the advice isn't good enough.
ariaelf, I have tried to be polite, but you obviously have no care for showing politeness yourself.
Regardless of your own personal opinions, of the intent of those people responding to your questions, one thing is for certain, the manner in which
you choose to respond, in no way, could be considered harmonious to healthy discussion.
This thread should be a clear indicator.
People here actually have lives, that don't revolve around making yours uncomfortable, or otherwise harassing you, because they seemingly have nothing better to do.
If you want to continue to believe, that people here, serve only to harass you, that is fine also. You should then consider not participating at these forums, and finding a forum where members are more aligned with your opinion of respectful behaviour.
Kind regards,
Audionut.
Quote from: ted ramasola on May 17, 2014, 01:34:20 AM
keep it classy guys.
This thread lost some of its class, way back on page 1 Ted. :(