RAW video motion smoothness

[jcdenton]

Hi every one.

I recently started using the Magic Lantern to shoot RAW video. I really like the result. Except for one. Motion of this video is really terrible.
I always thought that using x2 shutter speed must give smooth motion but in case of RAW it doesn't work for me.

Here is some examples:

1584x892 23.976 fps 1/48 (blue color)

1584x892 23.976 fps 1/65 (green color)

All videos was shot using in lens image stabilization with pretty smooth panning head which give me very good results every time I used it on h264.

ML Version: Andy600.Build.2013Aug18.50D109

Lexar 64GB 1000x no frame skipping very durable recording.

Exact FPS in ON 23.976

I tried to find some info about this problem but didn't find anything. Can anyone help me with this one and show what setting should be set to get a proper motion? Maybe some link where I can get this info?

[Rewind]

Mismatch with your project settings?
Or may be just footage interpreting is wrong in your NLE ))
e.g. After Effects default for imported image sequences is 30 fps

[maxotics]

There are huge frame-size differences between H.264 and RAW.  The H.264 in the camera is designed to keep only as much information as necessary for large inter-frame changes.  You're talking may 100k a frame.  With RAW, you are essentially sending 1584 x 892 x 14 bits of image information, every 24th of a second to your Editor, or about 50 megabytes a second.  I think what Rewind is saying is you need to configure your editor to make smooth transitions, or it may be that your PC is too slow and that is somehow effecting the rendering. 

In any case, I highly doubt it is a problem with the RAW footage.  It is somewhere in your post-processing.  I see Rewind just edited his reply.  That sounds more likely, a fps mismatch.

[painya]

Also, if you apply a gaussion (i think) blur with a radius of 1 pixel you won't lose much detail and it will be smooth. Also, just right click-modify-interpret footage- and put in your frame rate. Let me know how that goes.

[Andy600]

If you're on a tripod switch off IS. It's not needed and will cause this exact problem!

It's pretty much been described here but you need to make sure your footage is 'conformed' correctly in your NLE.

Also, rolling shutter can be an issue, even with slow panning. Look up the 'rubber band panning trick'. It can help

[Majorbludd]

I'm nearly certain the problem is that you are using IS while your camera is on a tripod. Always turn IS off when using a tripod. There is never an exception.

[jcdenton]

Thank's you all for your replies.

The main problem was indeed fps mismatch in AE (was really tired). Here is the right result.

But as you see its not perfect. I'll try to get more smooth motion by turning off the IS next time and will post it here.

Also I'm wondering is 24 fps with 1/48 180 degree will have more smooth motion then 23.976 fps 1/48 175 degree?

[jcdenton]

Didn't get any success in getting smooth motion with magic lantern. The overall result is similar to the video below.

Workflow

Shoot 24 fps 1/48 > Raw2dng > ACR grading (shadow hightlight exposure) > TIFF > Export Sequence in AE > Interpret as 24 fps > Encoded as 24 fps FullRes h264

The only thing I didn't try is to skip grading in ACR.

Someone can give the example of smooth panning of raw video on 50d?

[Rewind]

What exactly wrong with your last result? Looks alright for me.
One thing, you should certainly turn the IS off for pans like that.

[pascal]

Definitely turn off IS.

[jcdenton]

Sorry for late reply.

Here is another example I shoot today. I think its pretty much better but not perfect. Maybe I just used to shoot in 30 fps and 24 fps is just not smooth enough for me. What do you think?

[Rewind]

Something wrong with fps again. Project settings or interpretation mismatch.
Or even stabilizer is still on ))

[jcdenton]

Something wrong with fps again. Project settings or interpretation mismatch.
Or even stabilizer is still on ))

There are no stabilizer on this lens)

This are the setting I using:
FPS Override: 24 exact FPS
Resolution: 1584x892
Global draw: On
Shutter speed: 1/48
Exp.Override: On
Exp.Sim: Movie

Canon settings all default except: quality - RAW

This are the workflow:
Then raw2dng > adobe camera raw 7.0 > WB correction > Export to TIFF > Export Sequense in AE > interpret to 24 fps > new 24 fps sequense > add to render > h264 24fps 1584x892 High 4.2 target 20 max 62,5

I don't understand what can I do wrong. Maybe it something in my camera settings?

UPD
I tried the same thing in DaVinchi Resolve 10 Lite Beta. Result is pretty much the same. So it has to be something before post production.

[painya]

Maybe optimize FPS for Low light? That might help.

[RenatoPhoto]

I could never get smooth 24 fps panning video.  I use 30 fps or 48 or 60 fps if I want smooth panning motion.  It is also very codec dependent and player.  If I render in AVI using Cineform codec I get much smoother pan, if I go with main concept AVC or mp4 the smoothness becomes choppiness.  I am not an expert, so I only give my experience, and in my opinion the posted video is what I expect out of 24 fps with canon.

[Rewind]

Sorry for late reply.

Here is another example I shoot today. I think its pretty much better but not perfect. Maybe I just used to shoot in 30 fps and 24 fps is just not smooth enough for me. What do you think?

Just figured out, the flash player fooling around with me. Downloaded your footage and it looks just fine.

[Africashot]

I can see a lot of speculation in this thread, so here is some more: I am almost certain your problem (or at least what still remains of it) is based on the keyframe settings once encoding to h.264. Usually the keyframe settings of major NLEs default to 24 (or one keyframe per second assuming you are shooting at 23.976) it however turns out that this is can be producing terrifying results as the intermediate codec can't keep up if most of your background changes within the second (like when panning). Try render it to a codec like cineform and watch it on the timeline of your NLE, it should play back perfectly smooth. There are many reasons to this, even the monitor frequencies play a role, it is also pretty hard to find a sweet point because once uploaded to youtube or vimeo the videos are encoded again to a new keyrame setting out of your control...anyway, please keep us posted on your findings.

[hjfilmspeed]

Heres my findings with smooth motion. Again frame rates in cam and with software alll have to match or else. 23.976 is different then 24 fps. you need to make sure everthing is 23.976 progressive fps and you should be fine. also you can fine tune your shutter with ML. this IMO gets you alot closer to that smooth 180 degree shutter look of a film cam. Which is tough for digital cams. i think red and arri come closest to that 180deree goodness) since i like to bounce around between frame rates i shoot like this. canon settings on 5d3 are 1920x1080 30 (29.whatever) with a 1/60 shutter. Then in ML go to fps overide and choose 23.976 low light. then go to ML fine tuning and choose shutter and i use a +1.13 i think which will get you just below 1/48th i think its like 1/47.9 something. Unless im imagining things it seems to get you closer to the 180 degree shutter. Anyway as long as your post settings all match up to your shot settings you should not have that issue. In fact you can sync external audio just fine too if your settings are right. I did a 5 min clip (exfat card) and i was able to sync ext audio just fine!

I have a question tho. Is there anyway to lock a perfect 180 degree shutter so when you change frame rates it will lock the shutter to 180 degree?

[jcdenton]

I spend some time testing the smoothness of RAW video with different setups. And achieved success result.

I tested a lot of different combination and experiment with FPS timer A & FPS timer B using the calculator I found on the internet. The result was quiet different. And here what I found.

The only mode that was really smooth in my case was 29,97 fps with default h264 FPS timer A & FPS timer B settings. You can find it if you turn off the raw video and fps override and just enter the fps override menu. There will be default values that you can't change. I just copy the numbers and the result was very smooth with no twitches. I tried the same fps with Exact FPS and in my test it was not smooth enough. Also I tried 30 fps and it was even worst.

The post processing is alright as I tested it DaVinchi, Premiere, After Effects, RawMagic, Raw2Dng, ProRes, h264 and the result is always the same. h264 1920x1080p30 (29,97) is extremely smooth by default.

Unfortunately I have no time to prove it with examples but I think this could give a clue to someone who experience the same problem and test it out to prove or refute it.

And please someone, Post a video example that will show some smooth panning using RAW module fps 23,97 to show that it is possible? I can't find any of these.

[RenatoPhoto]

The only mode that was really smooth in my case was 29,97 fps with default h264 FPS timer A & FPS timer B settings. You can find it if you turn off the raw video and fps override and just enter the fps override menu. There will be default values that you can't change. I just copy the numbers and the result was very smooth with no twitches. I tried the same fps with Exact FPS and in my test it was not smooth enough. Also I tried 30 fps and it was even worst.

In 5D3 I have an option for exact fps at 29.97.  Are you saying that this setting is not smooth enough?
Please provide link for the calculator mentioned.

[Audionut]

You can't get smooth fast pans with 24fps.  It's the reason James Cameron was pushing for 48fps as a standard before higher resolutions.

If you're getting smooth anything in h.264 but not with raw, it's a fault in your setup/process.

[hjfilmspeed]

So am i understanding this correctly? In order to get the smoothest motion or best motion your shutter needs to be 180 degree unless your going for the action fast shutter look. so 24 fps needs to be 1/48 or 23.976 needs a 1/47.952 shutter. Thats what i have been doing. Is that correct? If so and awesome ML feature would be a degree shutter lock so if you like to bounce around between different fps you can rest assure your shutter is at 180 or 90 or what ever.

[a1ex]

Some food for thought: these issues may be caused by temporal aliasing (just like line skipping, but on the time axis).

At higher FPS, temporal aliasing should be lower (in the same way as 1080p has less aliasing than 720p).

At faster shutter speeds, temporal aliasing should increase. At 360 degrees shutter speed, the aliasing should be significantly smaller (but still far from perfect) than at 180 degrees, but the motion will probably look unnatural. Compare it with a 2x1 downsampling with averaging (360 degrees), vs downsampling by skipping every other line (180 degrees).

A proper fix for temporal aliasing is this: http://tessive.com/time-control-faq/ (basically the equivalent of VAF in time domain)
or RED motion mount: http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/cinema-temporal-aliasing

If nothing helps, use slower pans (as slow as needed to stay under the Nyquist frequency).

Note: I didn't try anything of the above stuff, since I shoot mostly photos.

[hjfilmspeed]

OOOOOOOOOO that was a juicy! thank you a1ex

[hjfilmspeed]

http://tessive.com/the-time-filter/
Um....I want one