Modified settings menu

Started by a1ex, August 25, 2013, 11:25:55 PM

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a1ex

Here's a little experiment that should help with usability: a dynamic menu that shows only the settings that you have modified. You can use it to review the settings before a shoot, for example (e.g. to make sure you don't have some esoteric setting enabled by mistake).

https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/commits/12faa2c544c7

@stevefal: what do you think about it? maybe you can suggest a better icon?

Marsu42

Sounds like a good idea, having some "esoteric" setting screw up my shot and me unable to find out the problem quickly was always one of my worries about using ml.

But the items displayed should probably only include or at least highlight config vars that actually enable features and not settings like the lens delay for focus stack that are to be modified by the user anyway since the default value is just a rough guess. I know this isn't as easy to implement, but otherwise the menu would get spammed with useless information and you'd not be able to discover what the problematic feature is.

arrinkiiii


RenatoPhoto

Thanks, nice menu and usability.  Since you can make changes in this menu it is like a new menu of the things that I use most.  This simplifies and provides quick access to what I use most.
:)
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stevefal

Quote from: a1ex on August 25, 2013, 11:25:55 PM
@stevefal: what do you think about it? maybe you can suggest a better icon?

I'm still not able to build, so can't try it...
Steve Falcon

stevefal

In either case I'll propose an icon, plus a new one for Modules.
Steve Falcon

stevefal

Here is a custom "modified" icon: 
Steve Falcon

stevefal

Steve Falcon

arrinkiiii

Since you can change the settings maybe making 3 or more costumes presets for different settings?


Also if i got the cropmarks off it will show the submenu (blue square) with my on cropmark that i change in the dinamic menu, even if is off in the overlay menu. It's  nothing just saying...

a1ex

The delta icon is interesting, though maybe not very intuitive at first sight (but I'm not sure what else to suggest). The module icon looks great!

Presets are unrelated.

About submenus: if the main menu is disabled, would you prefer to hide the individual settings? (they don't normally affect the functionality).

There are some exceptions: e.g. even if auto ETTR is turned off, the parameters from submenu are still used for the ETTR hint on the histogram. Or, the settings from submenu (e.g. Prefs), which don't have a master setting.




Audionut

I'd personally prefer the submenu to remain seen if it's parameters affect functionality.

Quote from: a1ex on August 26, 2013, 07:10:47 AM
e.g. even if auto ETTR is turned off, the parameters from submenu are still used for the ETTR hint on the histogram. Or, the settings from submenu (e.g. Prefs), which don't have a master setting.

a1ex

Tweaked the interface a bit, seems a bit cleaner to me:



(submenu items are shown with smaller font, and with context info, so you know where they came from; same for My Menu; top level menus are shown normally)

Now I'm not sure whether to gray out the submenu settings if the master entry is disabled.

Audionut

Grey out the master entry (if it's off) but leave the submenu entry highlighted to show its active?

a1ex

Something like this?



(if anything is modified in the submenu, shows the master entry too, even if the master was not modified)

Audionut

Yes.  But for this instance with ettr, it makes sense to me to hide the entry completely, as slowest shutter doesn't affect any other functionality.

Where as if the hint parameters are changed, both entries would show like your last example, because it affects another function.

You could go as far as to hide the hint entry also if raw histograms were disabled.  As the hint parameter is then only affecting a disabled function.

Global draw off - hide all other functions that only have a direct affect with global draw.  Raw based overlays, cropmarks etc etc.

That should help keep it clean. 

a1ex

Or, even better:



which starts to look like this: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=4386.msg50515#msg50515

Hiding stuff based on functionality is a bit more complicated. Right now I'm only looking things up in the config file - if they were modified, they are displayed.

Marsu42

Quote from: a1ex on August 26, 2013, 12:40:04 PM
Hiding stuff based on functionality is a bit more complicated. Right now I'm only looking things up in the config file - if they were modified, they are displayed.

Indeed, it's basically a variation of the colored modified settings you once had. It's just that the delta adheres to the default values hardcoded in the core or in the modules, and these are chosen by the devs and are not necessarily the only safe values.

As I understand this feature is for the user though, and not in the first place for ml debugging purposes - so if I decide I want some minor setting changed like the "Zoom x5" in your screenshot ml really shouldn't bug me about it anymore. The rationale is that if the menu becomes too large the practical usefulness will disappear, at least it would for me.

How about letting the user chose settings to hide, just like we can hide menu items? Another option would be to let the user save his own "base" config that overrides the ml built-in defaults and then display the delta from this user-chosen base.

a1ex

Having a default base config should do the trick. But this can be completely decoupled: once the config backend recognizes the base config file as "default", the menu will just work as you said.

Marsu42

Quote from: a1ex on August 26, 2013, 01:09:38 PM
Having a default base config should do the trick. But this can be completely decoupled: once the config backend recognizes the base config file as "default", the menu will just work as you said.

Sure, but at least this way you can get rid of some things you know you've changed once according to your preferences and that are safe, or are supposed to be safe :-p

I wouldn't mind having the "hide menu" option in addition to that for options that are often changed, but also not important enough - for example I often change the bracketing # of frames, but I also wouldn't want that to show up in the delta menu.

If you'd add both approaches, the delta entries would be slimmed down to the things that really matter and that have the potential to screw up everything. But every one of the above would be "good enough", and you're the one to implement it :->

a1ex

A little unrelated: I was also thinking to monitor some usage counters, and generate an automatic junkie menu, for example (which should only contain what you use often). With a forgetting factor, things that you have set once and never touch after that will disappear.

I use the junkie mode if I have to shoot something a little more serious (and then I select most stuff from Expo, some basic overlays, and a few tweaks from here and there, in total around 15-20 functions). But having to re-setup that menu every time after restoring defaults or changing cards isn't very funny, so I thought some automatic option might work.

Marsu42

Quote from: a1ex on August 26, 2013, 01:32:52 PMBut having to re-setup that menu every time after restoring defaults or changing cards isn't very funny, so I thought some automatic option might work.

For once, I don't see the problem - you can already hide settings from junkie menu independent of the old school menu, can't you? So if you know what couple of options you use you can just slim down the junkie menu to it.

Personally, any "intelligent" approach by software usually makes me nervous as I want to set everything myself, and don't want to think if experimenting with software makes some algorithm make the wrong guesses about what I want w/o knowing it :-o ... note: not everything that can be done has to be done.

arrinkiiii

Quote from: a1ex on August 26, 2013, 07:10:47 AM
The delta icon is interesting, though maybe not very intuitive at first sight (but I'm not sure what else to suggest). The module icon looks great!

Presets are unrelated.

About submenus: if the main menu is disabled, would you prefer to hide the individual settings? (they don't normally affect the functionality).

There are some exceptions: e.g. even if auto ETTR is turned off, the parameters from submenu are still used for the ETTR hint on the histogram. Or, the settings from submenu (e.g. Prefs), which don't have a master setting.

*I see this dynamic menu like a check right before star to record, with the possibility to change the settings right there. And normally the things that i mistake more is the fps, pal or ntsc, audio is on or off, picture style, etc... i know that some things is not from ML but from canon but would be good to see this things, because can ruining your work.

For example picture style, i know that im note use this in raw but im not record raw everytime, like so many users. If i go to my nephews birthdays i don't go record raw, h.264 is more then enough, if a client only have a small budget im not going to record raw but h.264 but i want my best picturstyle with the most dinamic for i work in pos and note the picture style from nephews birthdays, normally a regular from canon for not make color corrections in pos.

Is just a example of something that for me is more tragic for ruining a video/clip and my humble opiniao about what i check every time i go record something... fps, picturstyle, pal or ntsc, audio. 

*Yes, now the new menu is more pleasant, you can hide and short the menu, put what is your "best settings that can go wrong"

Quote from: Audionut on August 26, 2013, 07:17:27 AM
I'd personally prefer the submenu to remain seen if it's parameters affect functionality.

Indeed  :D but if i don't use cropmarks why should be there? and other settings i need scrool know?


-------

Beautiful dynamic menu... awesome work!!! thank you !!! :D

a1ex

For picture style, try REC picstyle. That one is from ML and will appear in that menu.

Something like this:



So, the menu will show whatever you have modified from ML settings, and you can tell if the cropmarks will be used or not. You can also tell what cropmark you'll get when you'll enable it.

P.S. Nanomad is making great progress with the new nightly build page ;)

arrinkiiii

Quote from: a1ex on August 26, 2013, 03:06:51 PM
For picture style, try REC picstyle. That one is from ML and will appear in that menu.

Thank youuuu  :D

I can not experiment now because my autoexec.bat don't have the dinamic menu. Brunonick fix the bug for the Lv freeze in the 7D but the compile that he make don't have dinamic menu... need to wait that some one compile the fix bug with the new autoexec.bat.

stevefal

Proposal to combine MyMenu and Modified:

- add a "star-delta" option to the Customize Menus mode - <blank>, "X", "star", "delta-star"
- delta-star means "include in MyMenu if the value is non-default"
- ML ships with critical/worthy items set to delta-star by default (this is the optimized Modified menu)
- Users can set an item to "star" if then always want it in MyMenu
- Users can set an item to <blank> if they think it is non-critical

This combines the two features and makes MyMenu a one-stop shopping "important settings" menu.
Steve Falcon

Marsu42

Quote from: stevefal on August 26, 2013, 04:09:15 PM
Proposal to combine MyMenu and Modified

To me, this seems to combine two completely unrelated approaches just because it can be done. MyMenu is about settings you always want to see because you're using them a lot.

The new Delta menu as far as I understand it is about settings you never want to see in one place unless something doesn't work as expected, and here's the way to figure out why ml is doing something w/o resetting the whole config. Or is the Delta menu supposed to give quick access to changed settings because ml expects you to change them again? If so, I've misunderstood the concept.

stevefal

Rather than mocking up, I'll make suggestions based on what's posted.

based on a1ex's above:



- Use full-size font throughout; occasional cropping on the right is better than most items being tiny
- Dim all children (icon, name and value) that are inactive due to an OFF parent
- Left-align child icons with parent text

The dimming may sound superfluous, but in the example above, there are only 3 deltas in effect.
Steve Falcon

stevefal

Quote from: Marsu42 on August 26, 2013, 04:14:05 PM
To me, this seems to combine two completely unrelated approaches just because it can be done.

For me it's not 'because it can be done'. I would appreciate one menu for settings I have changed or I change often.

Btw the proposal does not preclude having a discreet "starred" menu (current MyMenu), and a discreet "delta-starred" menu (current Modified menu). But the proposal is to join the two sets in a new menu because I think it represents the settings that are most important at any time.
Steve Falcon

Marsu42

Quote from: stevefal on August 26, 2013, 05:11:17 PM
Btw the proposal does not preclude having a discreet "starred" menu (current MyMenu), and a discreet "delta-starred" menu (current Modified menu).

For me, this is the idea that makes sense - though integrating what to show or hide in the Delta Menu of course could be integrated with the "customize menus" option to prevent code duplication.

However, as written above, I'd favor to show all changed settings that differ from a base user config in t he delta menu and then let the user hide the one that aren't wanted.

a1ex

Sorted the children dimming and the icon alignment.



For ETTR, the submenu settings being active with the main entry disabled is an exception and is not handled yet (they are dimmed if the auto ETTR is disabled, just like all other submenu entries).

For fonts, the main reason I've chosen a smaller one was that submenu entries tend to be a little more verbose than top-level entries, so having a small font helps maintaining the alignment for the name and value columns.

Also, it's a good hint that these are secondary settings, so it should also help reducing the visual clutter. And you have the full-size copies a few clicks away, in the submenu.

stevefal

Quote from: stevefal on August 26, 2013, 05:11:17 PM
Btw the proposal does not preclude having a discreet "starred" menu (current MyMenu), and a discreet "delta-starred" menu (current Modified menu). But the proposal is to join the two sets in a new menu because I think it represents the settings that are most important at any time.

On second thought, the proposal as written does not support discreet menus because it doesn't accommodate an item that should show in both menus. That would have to be handled by a 4th value or a new multi-select scheme.

In either case I prefer the unified approach of one menu.

I agreed that what constitutes "delta" is ideally based upon a modifiable base configuration. One proposal is to have a "Set defaults" mode in Preferences, in which the menu system turns a new color (like Customize does). Within this mode, every value change alters the base configuration from which deltas are determined.

While in this mode, all value text is white, and all overridden defaults are yellow.

A "Reset all defaults" menu item sets the base configuration back to factory.   
Steve Falcon

stevefal

QuoteFor ETTR, the submenu settings being active with the main entry disabled is an exception and is not handled yet (they are dimmed if the auto ETTR is disabled, just like all other submenu entries).

I don't understand this. Why should subitems be un-dimmed if the parent is disabled?

QuoteFor fonts, the main reason I've chosen a smaller one was that submenu entries tend to be a little more verbose than top-level entries, so having a small font helps maintaining the alignment for the name and value columns.

I recognize the issue, but the difference in size is jarring. If so many small rows is acceptable, then how about making all rows small?

Another issue is that the grey icons are so dark they read as absent, and so parent items with grey icons look indented as well. I suggest making the grey icons lighter.

Quote... and you have the full-size copies a few clicks away, in the submenu.

I understand the rationale, but it's an unfortunate compromise in look and usability (tiny fonts).

Getting to the root problem, is there any way I can help move ML towards proportionally spaced fonts? This would have tremendous benefits everywhere.
Steve Falcon

a1ex

There is an ETTR hint on the raw histogram that is computed according to auto ETTR settings, even if auto ETTR is turned off. It doesn't affect anything but that little number, but technically these settings do something (minor) even if the main entry is off.

Proportional fonts would be nice; the menu backend is no longer relying that much on fixed width fonts, so it would be more or less straightforward (but time consuming). The font for menu headers is already proportional.

stevefal

QuoteThere is an ETTR hint on the raw histogram that is computed according to auto ETTR settings, even if auto ETTR is turned off. It doesn't affect anything but that little number, but technically these settings do something (minor) even if the main entry is off.

This kind of exception bakes confusion into the UI. In this case the ETTR parent is neither an <only navigation> node nor a <master setting> node. Every layer of new features with UI quirks digs the usability hole deeper. If any developer out there wants to take on a challenging project to branch and normalize the ML UI system, I will work with you. It is solvable.

QuoteProportional fonts would be nice; the menu backend is no longer relying that much on fixed width fonts, so it would be more or less straightforward (but time consuming). The font for menu headers is already proportional.

Is it time-consuming grunt work, or complicated work? Is there foundational work that could be done to enable others to help? Figure that moving to proportional fonts will reclaim 20-25% horizontal text space. And people will be shocked how great things will look.

Updated "modules": . The previous was a little too small relative to the rest.
Steve Falcon

kukysimon

Hi Alex, please , YES;)... a few custom preset config buttons or a similar option to activate such config presets .... , where all these many settings can be memorized and saved for a specific setup  on a  lens or shoot setup/ mode etc etc , so that those 15-20 settings turn on with just a push  of may be a button (..or two) , is a real serious feature . on my sets when everyone needs my attention all the time, and when you stare at the ML menus making changes ,  hoping you are not doing any one of those wrong , it's crazy dangerous sometimes , since people continuously come and talk to you the photographer.
imagine all the wedding photographers (massive market ) out there who would miss a moment they could never redo again.
i would have these presets for my own shoots, see below , with  aspect ratio , cropbars/cropmarks , heighth to width setting, global draw, histogram , zebra,focus peak, etc etc etc:

-max res with raw in 1:2.67  24f/s
-max res with raw in 1:2.67  50f/s
-max res with raw in crop mode 24f/s
-Max res in 264 ( by the way is the bitrate change option for 264 not existing  in the august 21 version?)
-Max res in 264 50f/s

i switch between these setting often, and its such a waste of time to always do these changes with so many steps.

may be another cool feature could be to be able to save the settings and pass them on to others as well in a way.
you could then easily make a max res setting for a new alpha version to download for all of us non programmers.

with my external monitor its also hard to remember which setting make what work on it, since its not at all the same feed as the internal lcd gets.
there would be for sure  a setting i would save for the still very few little things that do work with my smallHD monitor ...




Marsu42


Audionut



Here I would have Focus Peak, Spotmeter and False color completely removed from the menu.
With the main functions disabled, who cares that the settings have been modified, as they are not affecting current functionality.

That would clean up all this clutter also for instance.

a1ex

My "workhorse" settings:



Is the clutter still an issue with latest builds? (since the new fonts)

Audionut

No.

And it's better with those submenu items hidden when the main function is off  :)

arrinkiiii


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