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Author Topic: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)  (Read 210762 times)

Grunf

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CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« on: May 17, 2013, 03:10:09 PM »
With existing ML patch allowing us to record raw data to CF card and EDMAC DMA-copy having very high bandwidth (>500MB/sec), it's becoming obvious that it's CF speed that is biggest obstacle in using raw for higher resolutions and/or frame rates.

To circumvent pricey (and often temperamental) CF cards, we need reliable CF-to-SATA transfer interface.

My belief is that such device could be done.

What we need is Bi-Directional converter for serial and parallel ATA that supports UDMA-7 on PATA side. SATA side isn't important as even the lowest speed (rev.1 ) is 150MB/s which is almost as good as UDMA-7 157MB/s.

Quick Google search: here's one for 38 dollars:

http://www.cooldrives.com/saidecomisat1.html

Quick check of specs:
Serial ATA 1.0 Specification compliant
Automatic Serial ATA 1.5 Gbps speed negotiation
ATA / ATAPI PIO mode 0 to 4
ATA / ATAPI Ultra DMA of transfer rate 16.7, 25, 33, 48, 66, 100, 133, and 150MB/s.

It supports UDMA-7 on PATA-side!!!


One thing that is left is to interface IDE to CF slot. Electrical specs should be the same, but physical interface differ.
Thus, we need female "faux CF"-to-PATA passive adapter. I don't know if such exist but I could make one by disassembling old CF card and soldering new lines. :D

Are there any other radio-shack geezers that would like to volunteer for some good-old HW tinkering? ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:12:27 PM by Grunf »

bumkicho

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2013, 03:15:51 PM »
If someone kickstarts this project, I will gladly support!!!!

AnotherDave

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2013, 03:17:32 PM »
What about a CF extender cable?  They make those!

CF to IDE adapters seem like they're merely PIN converters!  So they should be BI-directional, right?


xaled

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2013, 03:19:53 PM »
See this thread, it was discussed already:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5397.0

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2013, 03:26:01 PM »
Converter from my top post seems to be withdrawn. This one works the same and also supports UDMA-7:
http://www.cooldrives.com/index.php/saidecomisat.html
It supports both  the ATA register command set and PACKET command set. (which is good as I'm unsure which is used by CF).

CF to IDE-passive converter schematics:
http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/CFtoIDE.pdf


Pinout for CF in CF specifications (page 40):
http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/cfspc3_0.pdf
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:27:32 PM by Grunf »

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2013, 03:32:05 PM »
What about a CF extender cable?  They make those!

CF to IDE adapters seem like they're merely PIN converters!  So they should be BI-directional, right?

CF uses IDE on electrical layer so yes, theoretically you only need a passive wire-layer adapter. ;)

Buffering, scheduling and re-packing data into SATA format is done by active adapter, which probably uses Marvel SOC chip or such.
It's so cheap I'll order one and see if I can make it work.

(P.S. I need to borrow 5D, I have a GH2 :D )



Cityeater

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2013, 04:50:15 PM »
I've been avidly following developments. Thanks to the devs for their hard work its yielding some incredible results.

Following over from the other thread in regards to an external hardware component I thought I might suggest something a little more generic in regards to the interface.

I love the ribbon CF extender cable, is there a way to slip the ribbon in under the cover of the 5d for a painless external mod? Flap could stay closed. Permanently.

But I wonder if something more generic using more robust existing hardware could be a tidier solution.

I have no expertise in this area but couldn't something like this

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/845797-REG/Lexar_LRW307URBNA_Professional_USB_3_0_Dual_Slot.html

interface between the cf extender and a USB 3 male to male to a USB 3 SSD battery powered portable drive? It may prove cheaper (If there was some way to get it to work) and a bit more robust for those of us in the field. Also USB 3 cases are fairly ubiquitous and maybe there is a RAID one which could provide some level of redundancy.

That reader could also host something on the SD card slot so it maybe easier to code (again well outside my realm of knowledge) something that was compatible with the sd card model canons aswell? A Universal magic lantern solution. I'm not sure what challenges this represents but I could imagine something like that rubber banded together and secured near the flap.

Also might allow for easier mag changes. What do you think?

Just spitballing, love the work you're doing.   

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2013, 09:53:12 PM »
Cityeater:

Product you're linking to is interface between CF-card and USB. That's "wrong way". What we need is emulation of CF (so camera believes it's connected to CF but data goes to SATA). While Camera-SD-USB interface is probably doable, it's not trivial  My idea is more like stringing a cludge from COTS components. ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 10:05:01 PM by Grunf »

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2013, 10:04:17 PM »
where are you from?
Sweden, so shipping costs for most of SATA-PATA converters from E-bay cost more than interface itself :(
I guess that limited testing could be done on old CF-camera, like an old Ixus or such. If it works and lines are soldered correctly, I could ask a friend to borrow me his 5D.

I've been sifting through different implementations of bi-directional PATA-SATA interfaces.
This one looks promising (notice single 12V power supply!):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812186032

coutts

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2013, 10:16:02 PM »
I have an old 5dc that is bricked, if I extract the cf controller and ship it to you would that help?

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2013, 10:27:58 PM »
I have an old 5dc that is bricked, if I extract the cf controller and ship it to you would that help?

Nope, it needs to be tested on working CF-camera. But for first round, it doesn't have to be a 5D. Any old CF camera will do (so we can verify the interface works).

If I solder the PATA <-> CF cable wrong, it might brick the CF-slot, that's why it would be best to test it on something old.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 10:32:37 PM by Grunf »

Dash

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2013, 10:42:52 PM »
@Grunf: Maybe someone in China will find a way to make new business on this :) I hope that some people got this idea also.
Connecting fastest SDD would give us 4k in raw :) Or am I wrong? What writing speed is needed for 4k RAW?

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 11:12:00 PM »
@Grunf: Maybe someone in China will find a way to make new business on this :) I hope that some people got this idea also.
Connecting fastest SDD would give us 4k in raw :) Or am I wrong? What writing speed is needed for 4k RAW?

Even if interface supports full PATA speed, you would never be able to go above 167MB/sec as that is the limit of UDMA-7 controller in 5Dmk3. 1920x1080p24 RAW is 83MB/s, you do the math.

Realistically, I don't think interface will be able to max out UDMA7 even if it works. But if it can write raw 1080p24 onto honking big SATA harddrive w/o dropping frames, that would be cool ;)

It would be like good old days of carrying separate tethered U-Matic recorder with you 8)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 11:13:34 PM by Grunf »

VectorZ

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2013, 03:39:59 AM »
These guys seem like the kind of people who could build such an interface:

http://www.hwtools.net/index.html

pumaTPG

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2013, 04:33:17 AM »
dont know if this link was posted , but might be useful. http://www.sycard.com/180hib.html

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2013, 09:32:44 AM »
dont know if this link was posted , but might be useful. http://www.sycard.com/180hib.html

Thanx for the heads-up, but I don't think it can be used.Clock speed for UDMA-7 is 24 ns Ă· 2. In order to have any chance of it to work, leads must be soldered directly on CF connector and kept short (w/o any breaks in-between), using 80-lead cable (with shielding). Otherwise, cross-talk and standing-waves would cause corruption.

Cityeater

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2013, 09:40:34 AM »
While Camera-SD-USB interface is probably doable, it's not trivial  My idea is more like stringing a cludge from COTS components. ;)

Thanks Grunf good to know, looking forward to what you all come up with. I read in another thread a little about the difficulty of getting the usb hosting to work, its a shame it wasn't that easy but I'm sure you guys will crack it.
For longer form stuff an ssd (or equivalent) is going to be pretty useful (or necessary) at the roughly 6GB a minute rate these are putting out.
This Sata interface you're working on could prove to be as useful as the RAW hack in the first place for some of us.
Looking forward to developments, best of luck.

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2013, 12:22:48 AM »
Hmm..I tried to make a adapter but it was much trickier than I imagined. I butchered CF card and de-soldered the contactor but line pitch is so small it's impossible to do it even with SMD soldering iron. I guess some sort of Host Interface Board is a must :( I have to check how much Sycard one costs.

I also thought a bit further about this, I bet you could eliminate SATA-PATA translation all together if you let camera talk to native PATA drive, formated as FAT32.


Andy600

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Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

bass1012dash

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2013, 08:48:09 AM »
Hmm..I tried to make a adapter but it was much trickier than I imagined. I butchered CF card and de-soldered the contactor but line pitch is so small it's impossible to do it even with SMD soldering iron. I guess some sort of Host Interface Board is a must :( I have to check how much Sycard one costs.

I also thought a bit further about this, I bet you could eliminate SATA-PATA translation all together if you let camera talk to native PATA drive, formated as FAT32.



sorry to hear, but is that's all that's needed, a ssd drive and a sycard? just the hardware hack?


If that pans out... AWESOME!!!!!!!

While I can't donate anything, I wish you the best of luck and cheer you on, good sir!

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2013, 10:13:40 AM »
no, not SSD. Ordinary harddrive. SSD's are usually shipped with SATA, we need PATA drive. And you will still need 12/5V to run the harddrive.

N.Mendes

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2013, 10:33:10 AM »
Hello all, how are you?

Andrew from Eos Hd said that he might have found a way to attach SSd to CF slot...

you should take a look at this  tweet:

https://twitter.com/EOSHD/status/335826242324541440

nanomad

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2013, 10:36:48 AM »
It's exactly what other people have proposed :)
EOS 1100D | EOS 650 (No, I didn't forget the D) | Ye Olde Canon EF Lenses ('87): 50 f/1.8 - 28 f/2.8 - 70-210 f/4 | EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 | Metz 36 AF-5

 

courtesy