Author Topic: Cinelog-C together with C100II's WideDR Profile (or C-Log)?  (Read 1483 times)

DeafEyeJedi

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Title says it all. I got a wedding to shoot next weekend. This time around I am going to go all RAW (probably 12-bit lossless from UHD/3K/4K experimental) and the question boils down to how should I accomadate Cinelog DCP together w either WideDR or C-Log color profiles flawlessly.

Because previously the last wedding I shot everything in H264 w crop_rec build for 5D3's in Faithful (0,1,2,0) together with C100II in Standard EOS color profiles which was critical when exposing for subjects. Not very forgiving in Highlights or Shadows.

Hence the reason why I'm biting the bullet this time to go all RAW in order to give myself the extra flexibility & latitudes in post since I'll be color grading them before I hand them off to clients for them to edit themselves (the last wedding's client wanted the footage ready straight out of the cameras for him to take home on the night of and wasn't comfortable w flat log's/color-grading, etc.) so for those of you have done something in similar, please share your thoughts or experiences, if any. 

I know you're probably reading this @Andy600 - but really thinking that I may be better off (even tho I should avoid from using this) to shoot Standard EOS color profile on the C100II to better match with RAW if I were to apply Cinelog-C w Canon Faithful LUT on top from the LUT bank?

However, I would prefer to shoot in WideDR (or C-Log) if I could but not sure how to match RAW w Cinelog-C (certain LUT's) unless I create my own from Davinci Resolve by matching the scopes, right?  :P

Personally, I would really love to be able to use @hyalinejim's Ektar 100 LUT's (either be TWISTED or ADVANCED_02) on top of Cinelog-C for RAW together w C100II's C-Log only if I had a proper LUT to use in order to better match w the RAW's Cinelog-C colorspace + Ektar 100 files.
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hyalinejim

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Re: Cinelog-C together with C100II's WideDR Profile (or C-Log)?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 10:07:54 PM »
Hi Sean, this is a really interesting project - to match 5D3 Cinelog C with C100 colour and gamma and it's totally doable. Here's what I would do:

Gamma:

1. At night, load up a 100% white image on your monitor.
2. White balance each camera to that white.
3. Slightly defocus the lens so that the monitor pixels become blurred and moire disappears
4. At base ISO, shoot a series of clips that start about a stop or two above clipping and go 12 stops down from actual clipping in 1/3 stop increments. Use shutter speed first, and if you can't get dark enough - aperture.
5. Import the files from both cameras into your NLE and look at the waveform. Check if the 2 cameras clip white to 100% IRE (C100 may have superwhites to 109 in WideDR?) at the same point. If so, you can expose them the same. If not, you might want to overexpose one to preserve maximum DR.
6. Export the central portion of each shot from clipping down to almost pure black (let's say 36 shots - 12 stops - 1/3 stop increments). The central portion is best because it avoids vignetting.
7. In Photoshop combine these central squares into a linear wedge. (Bridge>Tools>Photoshop>Load files into PS layers)
8. Put both step wedges into one document and use the info panel to identify the values of adjacent squares and write them down.
9. Use curves to match the gamma of one camera to another. Just keep on adding points and type in the input (camera 1) and output (camera 2) values. There are only so many points you can add so just get a good spread.
10. Save this curve from PS and load it up in After Effects, or convert to a lut using IWLTBAP lut generator by applying the curve to a HALD.



Colour:

1. Shoot a ColorChecker with both cameras at the same exposure. (Or at different exposures if you know one clips before another and plan to compensate for this). The 4th grey square from the white one is 18% grey - which is 111 RGB in Cinelog.
2. Denoise and blur the shots.
3. Cut out the squares and make PNGs
4. Bring both of them into Resolve and put one over the other.
5. Apply the gamma lut to match the gamma of one camera to the other
6. If necesary, put the exact same temporary node on both cameras to boost contrast and saturation so that black / white / chroma fill the waveform and vectorscope.
7. On a new node use Hue v Hue and Hue v Sat to line up the points on the vectorscope.
8. Disable the temporary contrast and saturation node.
9. Export the correction as a lut. This will match the cameras much more closely.
10. Go do a test shoot, check it out.

You might need a pot of coffee or bottle of wine to see you through this process but it's very satisfactory. There are some images in this post which might make the colour matching clearer:

http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/24803-improving-gh5-colour-comparison-with-5d3-raw/

Using this method I've successfully matched my XC10 and GH5 to ML Cinelog. Of course, it's better to match Cinelog to the other camera because it's RAW or 444. But if you want to use the Ektar lut you should try to match the C100 to the 5D. If it works with the XC10 it should work with C100.

Good luck, have fun and post your results!  :)


DeafEyeJedi

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Cinelog-C together with C100II's WideDR Profile (or C-Log)?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2017, 07:17:05 PM »
Hi @hyalinejim - Thanks for jumping on board with this little project of mine. I think this would also be useful for others eventually once I get to the bottom of this. Sorry the last few days have been quite hectic for me. A 2nd videographer that had committed to me for this Saturday's wedding just bailed out on me earlier this week on Monday and I scrambled around LA for a replacement to no avail due to short notice.

After all I've decided to hire a photographer (originally I was gonna do both but no thanks now that I've been screwed!) to join along allowing me to focus primarily on videography work. Problem solved. Well not quite but it's a lot less on my plate.  :-X

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...to match 5D3 Cinelog C with C100 colour and gamma and it's totally doable. Here's what I would do:

This tut guide looks really intriguing and definitely will try to get this done today if not by tomorrow. Problem is I don't own a X-Rite Colorchart but at where I work there's a few of these DSC Labs ColorBar/GrayScale charts. Should still be able to do this, right? Eventually I'll get my own copy of X-Rite Colorchart. I own a few 18% Grey Cards if that helps?

Also after discussing briefly w @Andy600 via PM earlier this week I've determined to go with C-log (instead of WideDR) when it comes to shooting w C100II to better match with Cinelog-C colorspace from RAW footage.

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Gamma:...

I'll do the Gamma section today inside a dark studio w a laptop to show 100% white monitor. I'm assuming the Base ISO for the C100II would be 850 and 200 (or 400) for the 5D3, right? I know I can use ISO 800 on the 5D3 but there's definitely more color noise to it. DF Avg Process can be really useful in here but that's a whole another topic and plus wouldn't that be cheating? :P

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Colour:...

Thanks so much for these useful details. Hoping to be able to use the DSC Labs chart that I mentioned from earlier. Once I get these done and open the squared PNG's in Resolve. I'm assuming this can only be done with this software and none of the Adobe products because I am to export this as a LUT for me to use in Post, correct?

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You might need a pot of coffee or bottle of wine to see you through this process but it's very satisfactory. There are some images in this post which might make the colour matching clearer:

Absolutely. Ha. These images definitely gave me a clearer idea on how to approach this. Thanks!

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Using this method I've successfully matched my XC10 and GH5 to ML Cinelog. Of course, it's better to match Cinelog to the other camera because it's RAW or 444. But if you want to use the Ektar lut you should try to match the C100 to the 5D. If it works with the XC10 it should work with C100.

Yes, that also came across my mind on the fact that it is better to try and match Cinelog to the other camera. Only if @Andy600 was able to provide a match for the C100II or better yet w the GH5 that I plan on using on the Ronin MX full-time.

That's right, I said Panasonic's GH5 that I'll be borrowing from a co-worker (even tho he didn't purchase the V-log Firmware update as I'm trying to convince him to go half on w me 50/50) because according to your success experiments w matching Cinelog to your GH5 footage even with Ektar 100 LUT's had V-log applied, correct?

Perhaps would you mind sharing these LUT's for the GH5 and that way I can probably finally convince my co-worker to pitch in on purchasing this V-log asap. Otherwise I'll have to fiddle through a bunch of color profiles from within GH5 menu's. Have you used Cine-D? Any hints on a V-log alternative if I don't end up getting it for whatever reason. Also do you know what would be the base ISO for this body? I was also told not to use ISO higher than 1600, do you find this to be true on your end as well?

The main reason why I've decided to use GH5 'full time' on the Ronin MX is because I'm only bringing two 5D3's and a 7D along w a rented C100II and would prefer to have a camera that's already balanced and sitting on the rig waiting for me to grab and go whenever necessary. There's no time for me to shoot & swap bodies around. Especially when doing this kind of work solo. Plus the GH5 can do 4K @ 60p (which then can be downscaled to 1080p to keep it's sharpness) to better match w RAW's quality and is twice as light as the 5D3's body weight. So that'll be a plus.
5D3.113 • 5D3.123 • EOSM.203 • 7D.203 • 70D.112 • 100D.101

hyalinejim

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Re: Cinelog-C together with C100II's WideDR Profile (or C-Log)?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2017, 03:52:27 PM »
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I don't own a X-Rite Colorchart but at where I work there's a few of these DSC Labs ColorBar/GrayScale charts. Should still be able to do this, right?

For the best results, you want one with lots of colour chips like this:
http://cdn.filmtools.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/1/6/16912-inset.JPG

This one doesn't have enough different colours to get a close match:
http://dsclabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Camette-Handy.jpg

If you do have the one with not so many different colours, you could try loading this up on your screen and shooting it instead (WB to the screen's white, and defocus to avoid pixels and moire).
https://s16.postimg.org/3tsurs1sj/Colour_Ramp-1.jpg
You won't be able to match all of the squares perfectly.

However, I think the ColorChecker is really good because it has a range of different saturations as well as hues. The chips on that were well chosen. Remember, you don't have to do the matching before the wedding. You can just shoot Cinelog and C-Log, do a manual white balance to match both cameras during the shoot, and do the nitty gritty later.

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I'm assuming the Base ISO for the C100II would be 850 and 200 (or 400) for the 5D3

100 for the 5D3.

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Once I get these done and open the squared PNG's in Resolve. I'm assuming this can only be done with this software and none of the Adobe products because I am to export this as a LUT for me to use in Post, correct?

You can use Adobe software to create a lut if you apply your correction to a HALD and use IWLTBAP lut generator. However, Resolve gives nicer results. If you PM me the two colour bar shots I can do this for you pretty quickly.

You'll have good luck with the GH5. Here are some luts for you to try:

GH5 CineD to Cinelog gamma and colour
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1exEpCRAfgFZ19TLVpBOWQ3bGc
This should work well. It's designed for 10bit CineD using full levels 0-1023. However, you need to recover superwhites and superblacks (32 bit colour space in After Effects or Luma Corrector in Premiere... Lumetri can't recover the info)

GH5 VLOG to Cinelog gamma and colour
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1exEpCRAfgFSWFPWWRHLXQ5SU0
This definitely works great and was the basis for my Ektar matching video that you saw.

For both luts, you'll need to play with the levels going into them to get a good exposure match.

Base ISO for GH5 VLOG is 400. For Cine D it's 200. ISO 3200 should be fairly clean. 6400 is still usable according to many. Haven't really tested it at length yet.


DeafEyeJedi

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Cinelog-C together with C100II's WideDR Profile (or C-Log)?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 09:38:38 PM »
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However, I think the ColorChecker is really good because it has a range of different saturations as well as hues. The chips on that were well chosen. Remember, you don't have to do the matching before the wedding. You can just shoot Cinelog and C-Log, do a manual white balance to match both cameras during the shoot, and do the nitty gritty later.

Thanks, Mike and I agree. I can definitely do all the nitty gritty later afterwards. The DSC Labs color chart that I ended up using was the version that looked like this.



Not even sure if that's enough set of colored chips. If not, will definitely order an X-rite Colorchecker after I get paid from this weekend's wedding.

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100 for the 5D3.

Thanks.

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If you PM me the two colour bar shots I can do this for you pretty quickly.

PM sent. Though not sure if I had done this correctly because it was rather tricky to use ML's Waveform to set the required IRE on the 5D3 in RAW so instead I used ETTR and set to about 55-60 IRE on the C100II in C-Log along with the GH5 to be -+0.0 perfectly exposed in FHD 10-bit 422.

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GH5 CineD to Cinelog gamma and colour
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1exEpCRAfgFZ19TLVpBOWQ3bGc
This should work well. It's designed for 10bit CineD using full levels 0-1023. However, you need to recover superwhites and superblacks (32 bit colour space in After Effects or Luma Corrector in Premiere... Lumetri can't recover the info)

GH5 VLOG to Cinelog gamma and colour
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1exEpCRAfgFSWFPWWRHLXQ5SU0
This definitely works great and was the basis for my Ektar matching video that you saw.

BIG Thanks for those. Will definitely have a play with them when timing permits.

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Base ISO for GH5 VLOG is 400. For Cine D it's 200. ISO 3200 should be fairly clean. 6400 is still usable according to many. Haven't really tested it at length yet.

This is great to know. I've decided to hold off from ordering the V-Log update because I learned that it ships to you within few days (not electronically like most Firmwares do which is odd) probably has to do with preventing Piracy and whatnot. I don't blame Panasonic. So I'll for sure use Cine-D for now until then.
5D3.113 • 5D3.123 • EOSM.203 • 7D.203 • 70D.112 • 100D.101