About to change from 70D to 7D + ML... need some advice

[Edu]

Hello! I'm thinking on selling my 70D and getting a 7D and a fast CF card to use Magic Lantern for Raw video recording. I know that the 7D has faster write speed, about 72mb I think, while the 70D has around 40mb, what tells me that the 7D will always be better for raw video than the 70D.

I dont care about auto focus really, I use manual lenses and getting an autofocus lens is not on my plans.

I would like some advice before selling my camera. Is there any reason why I should consider satying with the 70D instead? Like noise levels, ISO response, bitrates... (70D has more bitrate than 7D [91 vs 40] but with ML I can push it and get same or more bitrate than the 70D, right?)

Thanks in advance!!

[ansius]

in short - go for 50D instead and keep your 70D. raw is not a necessity, but a nice tool to have when needed, most of the time you do not need it. And when i doubt crank the bitrate up, I keep mine 1.5x and that is sufficient for 90% of my work.

I have 7D, and despite it being grate camera an all, it has limitations, basically last usable ISO is 1250, it is real bad at moire, and I have compared results with 50D (friend has one) and for raw I would go with 50D, despite it being even less sensitive.

70D performs almost as well as the 7D does and there are areas where it is even better. 7D pros are more photo related, than video, except HDMI out that stays high resolution when filming, and that key for me.

[walter_schulz]

About the moiré bit 50D vs. 7D: Do you have some RAW/MLV download showing the difference?

[ansius]

sadly but I haven't kept any from 50D, and I did not test rigorously, so that is my personal view (and by all means I can be wrong). Of course this was not done using crop mode. I'll try to make some proper comparisons (same scene / light, same lens, different cameras I can do 7D, 50D, 5Dmk2 & 5Dmk3) but that might happen in January, when I have way more free time

[ShootMeAlready]

The 70D picture puts the 7D to shame, check out the link below.  The 70D AF is really the best for AF, and even if you like to manually focus I think you will find the AF lock of the 70D useful, check the fast moving race-car video, I don't think you can get such good fast moving focus manually (perhaps you can?). 

70D AF test, low-light test and comparison which puts the 7D to shame and shows that the 70D in low light is good to ISO 3200.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjR2OztuXtA

70D AF video, where it tracks a fast moving race-car. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHfOHYWB2Dc

I like the 50D for value interms of APS-C raw.  The problem is that the 7D used costs as much as a 70D new, and its picture quality is not better than a 50D (IMHO) and that applies to its RAW footage.  So why pay the extra bucks for a 7D ? (unless you want the HDMI outs uncompressed for a digital video recorder).
If you really are after a higher raw res, I think the 5DMKII FF is a better value than a 7D, for similar coin and it has a better IQ even then the 70D.  JM2C 

[Frank7D]

@ShootMeAlready,

Can you be more specific as far as "image quality" of 7D versus these other cameras?

Higher bit rate (of 7D vs. 70D) allows higher resolution raw video, so 7D wins in that category at least.

Moire not an issue if you shoot crop mode.

[ShootMeAlready]

The Northrup video test is pretty clear, feel free to draw your own conclusions. The 7D had its day, but even the newer 70D loses out to the even newer 7DII in some features.
If you own a 7D no point in getting a 50D, but if you don't own either, which is what the OP is considering, the 50D+70D he already owns is a better value than only a 7D.  For $400 the 50D gets you into a decent res, aps-c raw.   50D RAW is close to the 7D and has similar pic quality, but if you have a 70D with it your miles ahead (fast AF focus, better low light & pic in h264, close to 1080p aps-c raw, decent raw crop) than just a 7D.

Does shooting in RAW at a nearer 1080p res on the 7D trump a 70D better AF, 70D better low light, and 50D near 1080p raw? Generally no, unless they need HDMI outs or insist on the highest near 1080p raw they can afford.   A 5DMKII raw beats a 7D for close to the same money, which is what I recommended for a better value if he thought high-res RAW with a superior pic quality was most important.     

[DeafEyeJedi]

I second that @ShootMeAlready

[Edu]

Hi, all! I have been watching lots of videos and reasearching and found thethat same conclusion, instead of 50D or 7D I think I should get a 5D2 and a 1000x lexar memory. The thing is that, to do that, I will need to sell my 70D, can't have both... ShootMe, you are very right about the AF, despite I don't actually use AF lenses, I may be tempted in the future to use this fascinating feature.

Do you think a 5D2 with a 32gb lexar will be ok for short movies (raw)? I don't have any idea of how much time I can reccord in 32GB raw video, and if it would be entirely continuous. I can always dump all the memory into a laptop as long as the card gets full... I don't care, I just want to shoot raw

Another thing... what about raw and low light? Videos about 50d & 7d in very low light show more grain than H264. 5D2 is very old, I think 70D would be even better than the 5D2 in low light... maybe I don't know what I'm talking about?

[Frank7D]

"The Northrup video test is pretty clear, feel free to draw your own conclusions."

I didn't watch the whole thing, but from what I saw it doesn't apply to how I shoot. First of all, it's h264, not raw. Secondly, it's not in crop mode (hence the moire). Thirdly, it's Youtube, which is going to soften pretty much anything due to re-encoding. You can't judge low-light grain under those conditions. Not saying you're wrong; just that you haven't made your case yet.

And again, if you're shooting raw, the 7D's 70 MB/s bitrate is a major advantage over the 70D's 40 MB/s.

[ShootMeAlready]

Edu
"I think I should get a 5D2 and a 1000x lexar memory. The thing is that, to do that, I will need to sell my 70D, can't have both...
Do you think a 5D2 with a 32gb lexar will be ok for short movies (raw)?
I can always dump all the memory into a laptop as long as the card gets full... I don't care, I just want to shoot raw "
- I like a 5DM2 and even Northrup recommended it as a great FF value play, especially for RAW.  If RAW video is your aim
then its a great tool.  When folks talk about Canon 5D used in movies like "Iron Man 2" or "Act of Valor" they are referring
to 5DM2 shot video not 5DM3!!!  So I think that should answer your questions.  The work flow well just ensure you have a CF reader and
enough memory cards, as its rare that you shoot a take for even more than 2 minutes, so it can work.


"Another thing... what about raw and low light? ... Videos about 50d & 7d in very low light show more grain than H264.
5D2 is very old, I think 70D would be even better than the 5D2 in low light... maybe I don't know what I'm talking about? "
- In the Northrup video the 5D2 was one stop better ISO than a 70D.  Its FF so its sensor while older, by design has less noise noise.
- As for the 50D/7D they are worst in low light then the 70D by at least one stop.  The 50D/7D aps-c sensor or is it the processor/algorithms
will AF much slower and seem to be overall noisier than the 70D.  This is hard to measure, and again quality of glass plays a big role in all of this as well, do you have fast glass? Are you using f1.8 or lower primes? else a great deal of what you're sweating may be glass limited. 

[ShootMeAlready]

Frank7D my research tells me this.

The first priority with video is focus.  And if you are not good with MF then quality of camera AF matters most.  AF is constrained by camera & glass.
Second priority is low light/hi light.  Blotchy / high contrast blobs or lost high lights are loss of detail.  This is constrained by the sensor in the first place, and RAW recovery optionally in the second place (you usually can adjust your lighting to mitigate shooting H264 so RAW is not as crucial). You can win an academy award shooting in B&W.
Third priority is colour/chroma.  This is constrained by the sensor in the first place, and RAW recovery a bigger amount in the second place.  You can desat colour to 17% for instance and still have a film look that's artsy.  A flat pic style and colour grade on H264 may be all that's wanted (with a faster workflow).  However if you want eye pop / richer colour tone RAW is best, but rich colours does not overcome poor priority 1 & 2 performance. 

So while the 7D is a good camera, and has been a work horse, it loses in priority 1 & 2 to the 70D.  Its hard to claim a better 3rd priority performance trumps poor priority 1 &2 performance.  The 5DMII loses only on priority 1, which can be mitigated by MF skill or proper use of an electronic/programmable follow focus rig/gear. However the 70D does fast AF, like the car race, faster than the mitigated approach support, which makes it crucial when fast AF is what you need to get the shot.   JM2C

[ansius]

The first priority with video is focus.  And if you are not good with MF then quality of camera AF matters most.  AF is constrained by camera.

I do have to remind that that is not all lenses, and the auto focus is not that grate, especially when it goes hunting, you can live with slightly soft image but not one where the focus is hunting. And at low light it cant do the job, I recently tested the 7Dmk2, and even tough you can adjust the focus settings to oblivion, in video mode it failed to achieve focus in low light. and a final note - no really serious production uses auto focus, you don't find auto focus on PL mount lenses do you? ever thought why? This is where the 7D outperforms 70D when used properly with external monitor, you can manually focus it with ease, and it is hard to nail the focus on 480p on what ever size of the screen.

There is big difference for people having DSLR as their first camera and people who have been working for years on other proper movie / video before using dslr. I have been switching the focus to manual even on high grade video cameras, why - because the autofocus can fail, and when it does you can have very angry client, some events you cant reproduce.

[Frank7D]

@ShootMeAlready,

Everything you say about the 7D's performance relative to 70D may be true, but the OP was looking to shoot raw, so your number three priority is really number one in his case.

[ShootMeAlready]

Ansius

So what's your recommended MF approach on a DSLR???

Mine:
- Absolutely when AF hunts, typically in low (or even very bright) light you go MF.  However I find quite often that when it hunts, there is serious noise in the shadow, such that even though I can MF using zoomX5-10, I generally drop my exposure settings to blacken out the banding in shadow.  I hate having to fix banding in post, its crap footage and a pain, I generally just drop exposure anyways.
- I am looking at using a Nexus 7 in the hotshoe, with DSLR controller app via usb, to get touchscreen focus, and a 7" screen for MF check.
- Where I find MF most useful is when you want to focus on things that have lower light/contrast and also very big sections that have no detail. 
- The Canon EOS utility via usb is useful, but requires a laptop, which requires a Tripad or some other big stand.  What's your screen/stand of choice?

Question
- Have you tried filming in Shutter Priority mode Tv, with Ev=0.  I find it very useful instead of Manual for outdoors when the sunlight keeps changing by the minute (and when youre not chasing the bokeh either).

Cheers.

[ansius]

So what's your recommended MF approach on a DSLR???

I use my 7D with an external screen when ever possible, there for it is not that hard to nail the focus by hand if you have a lens with a long enough of focus turn. This is one of the many reasons I use a lot of old manual m42 or k-mount glass, they have a long turn and the picture is nice for very little amount of money. I also have the ML settings for LV DIGIC peaking - slightly sharper, Focus Peak - strong edges, high-res, 0.5%, red and Magic Zoom - FocusR+HalfS, medium, top-left, 2.1, green bars.

I use canon glass when I really need the IS or have it at hand (I have only two automatic lenses - see below, because I'm not photographer primary, so automatic glass is not a necessity).

AF has never really worked in video, it has been a consumer feature, pros don't crave for it, why - we can't trust it, it is nice to have a push-auto (af-on) button, but when filming - mostly manual. here is an article worth reading on the topic of AF - http://philipbloom.net/2014/03/28/c100autofocus/

Adjusting exposure settings to make AF work is wrong, and wrong by so many levels. picture is what matters, not operators inability to manually focus. ML has a nice feature of having two picture profiles on, one while in live view other for recording. I use standard for the LV and Marvels or Technicolor (both are good tools but they are different, it all depends on your workflow, grading tool set and weather you have to integrate you footage with other brand cameras). Standard is sharper, more contrasty, so it's easier to see where the focus is, but when I record I want to have the best range I can get. Tough I would not film a foggy day in a flat profile - that's pointless.

I have used usb to laptop and tablet, but mostly when on tripod static shots where camera doesn't move, like interviews. It is grate when I'm also the journalist - because I can keep communicating with the person, and me looking at camera does not distract him, nor makes him aware of it.

7-8" screen is sufficient, a good one if you can afford it. I tested the new sony oled ones, they are pure awesome, but way way too expensive for dslr setup. just go for one that has IPS and at least true native 720p resolution, 800x640 are pointless for focusing, loupe to the screen of the camera is the same result for less money.

I've tried all kinds of auto modes for video on DSLR, and they all suck. first of all - they jump the corrections thus making the footage unusable, the best auto is your hand and variable ND tough you have to be aware that variable Nd is two polarizing filters stacked together - thus you have to take care with how reflections and sky look. when ever I can, I tend to use a plain NDs

Summing the 70D vs 7D they are apples and oranges. you can't say that one is better by judging only sweetness, or that one has to be pealed and other not necessarily.

70D

• is better in low light,
• it has adjustable screen,
• video AF,
• WiFi

7D

• much more robust and is much more ergonomic to me,
• no need to make the screen dirty (no touchscreen),
• has high res output on external screen all the time
• larger viewfinder
• CF slot so decent raw and no brittle SD cards
• PC sync out which is a must have for some shoot-move-shoot time lapse systems (there is a way around form top hotshue, but it is inconvenient)

[ShootMeAlready]

" I also have the ML settings for LV DIGIC peaking - slightly sharper, Focus Peak - strong edges, high-res, 0.5%, red and Magic Zoom - FocusR+HalfS, medium, top-left, 2.1, green bars.
... 7-8" screen is sufficient, a good one if you can afford it... just go for one that has IPS and at least true native 720p resolution, ... loupe to the screen of the camera is the same result for less money."
~ The DLSR controller app has focus peaking (and other options check video), and the nexus 7 is a 7" true 1080p, so its better than what canon DSLRs output.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNfeIcSsBWc


"AF has never really worked in video, it has been a consumer feature, pros don't crave for it, why - we can't trust it, it is nice to have a push-auto (af-on) button, but when filming - mostly manual. here is an article worth reading on the topic of AF - http://philipbloom.net/2014/03/28/c100autofocus/"
~ P. Bloom actaully using an upgrade to the C100 became a convert of sorts.  He valued it for fast moving subjects, as desirable.  His major criticism went like you can't smoothly continuous focus change, with AF between subjects as they move, and he wanted a focus lock button to let him control this.  The 70D which he did not get a chance to test, with the touchscreen focus does all of what he was complaining about reasonably well, and for fast moving exceptionally well.  What it does not do well is focus in low light/contrast.  I liked your idea of using a more contrasty pic style for focus setting, pic style does influence detail captured.  Yes MF skill has to be developed, focus peaks at true 1080p with lets say a 5X zoom certainly are all useful in that.
Second thought - focus in low contrast / fog, its hard to do in MF even with contrasty pic style, but its not useful for action anyways as light/contrast is needed else your eye wont be able to follow.  Same thought for action in low light.
http://www.canonwatch.com/philip-bloom-talks-canons-dual-pixel-af-eos-c100/

"Adjusting exposure settings to make AF work is wrong, and wrong by so many levels. picture is what matters,
Tough I would not film a foggy day in a flat profile - that's pointless.
I've tried all kinds of auto modes for video on DSLR, and they all suck. first of all - they jump the corrections thus making the footage unusable,"
~ Well wether you use MF, Manual or some auto style, the issue of shooting on a street where the clouds & sun change lighting is a challenge. 
1. Manual(24 fps) + ISO auto (max to 800 in menu) + AF (touchscreen as in 70D) ~ This uses ISO to let the most light in, and permits fast/smooth continuous focus change, good during the day.  Yes one needs ND for bokeh in bright light.
a great discussion on this approach:   http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0206161199/an-in-depth-discussion-of-m-auto-iso-for-canon-slrs
2. Tv Priority (say 24fps) + ISO auto (max to 800/1600 in menu) +AF (touchscreen as in 70D)~ This uses ISO and aperture to balance exposure. Not a good choice during the day, but nightime shot of someone walking down the street and you need EV=0 on their face, then changing aperture is your best bet as ISO likely to be at max. anyways.
Using less auto limits the amount of jumping about, which is needed to handle scenes with change of lighting.  ND filters I use when I have no choice (bokeh in bright light, contrast in snow), but fill light is often needed with them.
3. The other killer thing about a decent AF, is when you want to zoom parfocal.  A decent AF facial recog lock permits parfocal zoom, hence your budget non parfocal / IS lens becomes parfocal.

Final thoughts on MF, in general when its needed, a FF is a better tool.  It has less noise and handles low light better.  I find some have started to shoot in such darkness today, mostly because they can or want to show off their low light prowess. 
HBO series the Knick, I keep seeing shots with great sets, shot in utter darkness, where I am angry that they are burying detail in shadow, its abuse does not improve story. 
But us humble aps-c users we still need our lights, which if used creatively can still accommodate shadow and AF.   

[Edu]

Hi again, thanks for all the information.

The lenses I'm using are all MF (I agree that AF for video is not a must, at lest for me). This are my lenses: Voigtlander Color Ultron 50mm 1.8 / Voigtlander Color Dynarex 135mm 4 / Ricoh RX Rikenon 28mm 2.8 / Tokina RMC 17mm 3.5. They are not "the best" but I really like them...

I think I will get the 5D2 instead of the 7D... I think some of my lenses will hit the mirror of a 5D2 so I will be using the mirror block option of the camera.

I'm still not sure how the 5D2 behaves in low light compared to the 70D, I'm watching some videos but can't find any comparision between 70D and 5D2, they seem to be cameras from very different eras...

[ShootMeAlready]

In the Northrup video there is a bit of 5D2 vs 70D low light comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjR2OztuXtA
The 70D goes to ISO 3200, and the 5D2 goes one step higher 6400 (as I recall).  The 70D is close for an aps-c and beats all the rebels.

They are cameras of different eras and sensor design.
5D2 pros: RAW at high res near 1080p and 2K, low light one step in ISO, less noise in same low light.
5D2 cons: fastest 30fps in 1080p so no 60fps, AF is too slow for video so no parfocal zoom, try AF with Magic Lantern step focus and 2 point rack focus, slow pps, no clean HDMI outs, changing parameters more clumsy.

I dont think its really good to compare it to a 70D, as the 70D fast continuous smooth AF via touchscreen just means it gets actions shots you cant on a 5D2, so its a different tool.
70D pros: 720p 60fps, eventually 720p RAW, ISO 3200, aps-c is classic 35mm film look, AF as mentioned, parfocal zoom, 7pps for stills, WIFI for stills, flexi-LCD is sharp versatile.
70D cons: 720p raw does not get you close to 2K.  no clean HDMI outs.  No 120fps or 1080p 60fps.

If your going to shoot in H264 then the 70D is just a better video HDSLR.  But the 5D2 is the best value in FF RAW, for the projects which need raw, lowest light, and richer bokeh.
I think with proper lighting kit, the 70D is more versatile.