Author Topic: Exposure compensation in Manual mode  (Read 12012 times)

eyeland

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Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« on: February 19, 2014, 01:06:53 PM »
Couldn't find any discussions of this even though I have a feeling that it must have been debated already.
As the title suggests, it would be awesome if we could get Exposure compensation in Manual mode.
Amongst other things, it would make manual ETTR with autoISO so much easier.
Personally, this would be of great benefit for me when I shoot dance and acrobatics and it is my understanding that the BIF people would benefit greatly from it as well :)
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a1ex

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2014, 01:10:25 PM »
I no longer rely on Canon metering, but Marsu42 still does :P

www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8688

eyeland

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2014, 01:14:17 PM »
Ahh, great stuff, I guess this thread should be deleted :)
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Audionut

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2014, 02:58:18 AM »
I'll tentatively mark this as done, under the assumption that Marsu42 will get his AutoISO module into the main source.  :D

Marsu42

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2014, 09:13:06 AM »
I'll tentatively mark this as done, under the assumption that Marsu42 will get his AutoISO module into the main source.  :D

I intend to but am quite busy atm - but the autoexpo module also has ec and it's also implemented in m, so it can be used as such atm... but of course the idea of autoexpo is the absolute opposite of the traditional m mode.

Audionut

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Re: [DONE] Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2014, 09:35:13 AM »
As you know, I'm lacking in the coding skills department, but I must be useful somehow.  Please don't hesitate to ask if you need help with anything.

Testing, builds, whatever  :)

And thanks for the reminder about autoexpo.  So indeed, this is DONE.

Mannetti21

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Re: [DONE] Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 12:04:47 AM »
I'm reviving this thread because I'm having some issues either finding, or correctly using this feature. Or perhaps, I'm thinking this feature is something that it isn't. Let's clarify that first:

My goal is to put the camera in Manual mode, leave ISO set to Auto, and be able to manipulate both the shutter and aperture all while the camera adjusts the ISO to keep me at +2/3 EC. Is that something that could be accomplished with this current feature?
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ansius

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Re: [DONE] Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2015, 09:33:42 AM »
My goal is to put the camera in Manual mode, leave ISO set to Auto, and be able to manipulate both the shutter and aperture all while the camera adjusts the ISO to keep me at +2/3 EC. Is that something that could be accomplished with this current feature?

Check out ETTR that i think should do what you want.
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Walter Schulz

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Re: [DONE] Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2015, 09:47:10 AM »
Trade-off involved: Shooting can't be done in realtime. Takes some time (and liveview) to adjust settings.

Mannetti21

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Re: [DONE] Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2015, 10:29:47 PM »
Check out ETTR that i think should do what you want.

ETTR does not allow for the user to manually adjust the exposure compensation up or down. One very simple example of when/why this might need to be done is the camera's tendency to underexpose the image in bright scenes (think of a child playing in the snow). P, Av, and Tv modes allow you to set EC as desired to expose for the dark child rather than the bright snow.

Before I attempt to clarify my request, I need to point out that "Manual Mode" should not be interpreted literally as it is not limited to 100% manual operation; in reality, it should be called "Av/ Tv Priority Mode" since the Auto ISO option is still available. This mode allows the user to manipulate both the shutter and aperture to achieve a desired effect on the image while still retaining the automated exposure calculation via Auto ISO...

Now, while in this "Av/Tv Priority Mode" there is no way to set a +/-EC and still take advantage of the Auto ISO function. Instead, if you want to dial EC up/down, you have to stop between each shot and manually adjust the ISO setting until the histogram shifts to wherever you want it. Obviously, this is totally impractical for any type of moving subject or dynamic scene.



I made a request for this feature yesterday, but it was moved to the "Duplicate Question" forum. I have a feeling the moderator didn't fully understand the request. Either that, or I'm missing the thread where the request was either fulfilled, deemed impossible, or denied.
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Audionut

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 10:48:08 PM »
It was implemented here.  But the original author decided to remove public access to the code.

I made a request for this feature yesterday, but it was moved to the "Duplicate Question" forum. I have a feeling the moderator didn't fully understand the request. Either that, or I'm missing the thread where the request was either fulfilled, deemed impossible, or denied.

A single request thread is sufficient (this thread).  We don't need the forums cluttered by people who create duplicate threads.

dmilligan

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 11:15:54 PM »
ETTR does not allow for the user to manually adjust the exposure compensation up or down. One very simple example of when/why this might need to be done is the camera's tendency to underexpose the image in bright scenes (think of a child playing in the snow). P, Av, and Tv modes allow you to set EC as desired to expose for the dark child rather than the bright snow.
Well none of that is really true. I think you have a misunderstanding about what ETTR does and how to use it. ETTR does not meter the same way the other modes do, so "camera tendencies" do not apply to ETTR. You can set an exposure target (so in that sense there really is EC). And you can also set SNR limits, so that ETTR will expose such that the noisiest part of the image will be no noisier than a limit you set. In your example of a child playing in the snow, if you set an SNR limit, ETTR will overexpose the bright snow if need be to achieve the desired SNR for the darker parts of the image (i.e. the snow). You can also set the highlight ignore percentage.

Mannetti21

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2015, 12:53:25 AM »
It was implemented here.  But the original author decided to remove public access to the code.

A single request thread is sufficient (this thread).  We don't need the forums cluttered by people who create duplicate threads.

Apologies. The issue is was a bit confusing since the request is was marked "Done" while the feature is not actually available in the latest build. I never came across any post that explained this. Was there a specific reason why public access was revoked? Is there potential for the feature to be offered again?

Well none of that is really true. I think you have a misunderstanding about what ETTR does and how to use it. ETTR does not meter the same way the other modes do, so "camera tendencies" do not apply to ETTR. You can set an exposure target (so in that sense there really is EC). And you can also set SNR limits, so that ETTR will expose such that the noisiest part of the image will be no noisier than a limit you set. In your example of a child playing in the snow, if you set an SNR limit, ETTR will overexpose the bright snow if need be to achieve the desired SNR for the darker parts of the image (i.e. the snow). You can also set the highlight ignore percentage.

I don't think I'm communicating my point effectively. Let me try to rephrase. My camera body typically underexposes by approx 2/3 stop, even when metering a neutral colored blank wall or gray card. In Av, Tv, and P modes I can proactively correct for this by dialing in +2/3 EC and not have to resort to pushing the exposure in post (leading to increased shadow noise). Unfortunately, when I want to be in control of my aperture and shutter simultaneously in Manual Mode, I am no longer able to proactively correct for the 2/3 stop underexposure that I know will occur when using Auto ISO. The time required for the camera to calculate the correct ETTR renders the ETTR feature useless for dynamic situations with varying lighting. (ie. soccer player running from a sunny to shaded portion of the field, school play with changing backdrops and spot-lighting, outdoor shooting with intermittent and varying degrees of cloud cover).

With that in mind, for those types of situations, there is simply no way to do the following concurrently and in rapid fashion:
1) Control aperture
2) Control shutter
3) Maintain a fixed +/- EC

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dmilligan

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2015, 01:50:20 AM »
The original author didn't have the time or desire to cleanup the code to the point where it would be acceptable to the main devs and for them to merge it. Instead he sort of just got mad and took all his code down.

There are some work arounds though. If you use back button AF, you can "meter and recompose" which works well with spot metering. You can also try different metering modes (you didn't specify which metering mode you were using that was giving you consistent underexposure). Also if you don't mind sacrificing a little vertical resolution, you can use dual ISO to go "ISO-LESS"

Personally I don't find much of a use case for EC on M because either:

I have plenty of time to set up the shot on a static scene and I'm just in full manual mode OR

I don't have time to be trying to adjust 2 different exposure parameters at the same time on a dynamic and quickly changing scene and I need to use Av or Tv.

In the second situation I am forced to rely on Canon's automatic choice for the other exposure parameters which I agree is not always ideal or what I would have chosen had I had all the time to setup the shot, but it's often better than what I can do in a split second. It's also less to think about so I can spend more time thinking about the more artistic aspects of the shot like framing, lighting, timing, etc.

Also it's important to note that we are only talking about ISO here. 2/3s of a stop of ISO under exposure is hardly going to make much difference in SNR, if any at all (only full stop "analog" ISOs will make an improvement in SNR, so it's possible increasing ISO by 2/3 stop will actually use the same base analog ISO). Also, increasing ISO only reduces noise from the electronics, because ISO does not effect the number of photons collected, so photon noise (aka 'shot noise') will remain unaffected.

Mannetti21

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2015, 03:33:18 AM »
The original author didn't have the time or desire to cleanup the code to the point where it would be acceptable to the main devs and for them to merge it. Instead he sort of just got mad and took all his code down.

There are some work arounds though. If you use back button AF, you can "meter and recompose" which works well with spot metering. You can also try different metering modes (you didn't specify which metering mode you were using that was giving you consistent underexposure). Also if you don't mind sacrificing a little vertical resolution, you can use dual ISO to go "ISO-LESS"

Personally I don't find much of a use case for EC on M because either:

I have plenty of time to set up the shot on a static scene and I'm just in full manual mode OR

I don't have time to be trying to adjust 2 different exposure parameters at the same time on a dynamic and quickly changing scene and I need to use Av or Tv.

In the second situation I am forced to rely on Canon's automatic choice for the other exposure parameters which I agree is not always ideal or what I would have chosen had I had all the time to setup the shot, but it's often better than what I can do in a split second. It's also less to think about so I can spend more time thinking about the more artistic aspects of the shot like framing, lighting, timing, etc.

Also it's important to note that we are only talking about ISO here. 2/3s of a stop of ISO under exposure is hardly going to make much difference in SNR, if any at all (only full stop "analog" ISOs will make an improvement in SNR, so it's possible increasing ISO by 2/3 stop will actually use the same base analog ISO). Also, increasing ISO only reduces noise from the electronics, because ISO does not effect the number of photons collected, so photon noise (aka 'shot noise') will remain unaffected.

That's a bummer about the code. Each metering mode behaves very similar in underexposing. What I've been doing occasionally, as needed, is spot metering something that looks slightly darker than 50% brightness (for lack of better terminology). Of course this works only as well as my own estimation and does add an extra step into the process. I'll admit that Manual with Auto ISO and EC isn't something that I would need very frequently, but certainly enough occasions that led me to notice it was missing.

I hadn't thought about base ISO's...I guess 2/3stop in-camera is no better/worse than 2/3stop in post, assuming you were starting at a base ISO. That does actually make me feel a bit less short-changed. Still, it truly seems like a careless oversight by Canon considering it was eventually a standard feature in the 7D2 and 1DX.
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chris_overseas

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2015, 10:51:55 AM »
The one situation where I sorely miss EC in manual is for wildlife action shots such as unexpected BIF, brief animal sightings etc. In those situations I almost *always* want my widest aperture and a suitably fast shutter speed. ISO comes in at a distant 3rd place on the priority scale so auto ISO is the way to go. M with auto-ISO saved to a C mode is perfect for such "emergencies" - except there's no EC! None of the workarounds/alternatives suggested here or in any of the other threads on this topic satisfactorily deal with the above situation.
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c2s07

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 04:09:31 PM »
I would call this "75% manual mode": you decide Av, Tv, and EC, the camera decides ISO. :-)

It would be useful in movie mode as well. For example, on 6D, my current options seem to be:

A) Full manual exposure: you decide Av, Tv, and ISO, the camera decides nothing.
B) Manual exposure with auto ISO: you decide Av, Tv, and set auto ISO, but since there is no EC setting to adjust (for auto ISO), the exposure is fixed at zero EC
C) Automatic exposure: you decide Av (assuming manual aperture lens), EC, and auto ISO is always active, but you have no control over Tv.

Tv priority movie mode unfortunately does not exist. If it did, it would be a workaround for me and other manual aperture lens users, as you could set Av on the lens, Tv and EC on the camera, and then activate auto ISO and let the camera take care of the exposure based on your chosen EC setting.

Canon could have just made the A, P, Av, Tv, and M modes work in movie mode just like they do when shooting still images (in terms of exposure related settings).

eyeland

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2015, 04:06:38 PM »
I find it really odd that this thread keeps devolving to ppl telling us that we actually don't need the requested feature at all :)
I can totally accept if the implementation is impossible/difficult/time-demanding and/or if the ppl with the actual knowledge to find a solution have no interest in spending their time on it.
However, I think it goes against the nature of a feature request (besides deffinately not stimulating development on the feature in question) to keep telling us that we either don't need it or that we can just use a different feature (which all seem to fall at least as short as the default canon options for me when shooting theatrical dance and movement where the light is subject to sudden and extreeme changes at any given time (spots, costumes, backdrops etc)
I know from my collegues and from personal experience that the implementation of EC in M mode as seen on 1Dx is really really usefull for such situations.
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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2015, 02:05:32 PM »
@eyeland: I noticed the same. Yet the ask is really rudimentary and I wanted to add my +1 on its validty: When I shoot wildlife, especially birds in flight, I know what shutter speed I need at a minimum. I know what aperture I need at a mimumum (usually as wide as the lens can while still delivering good IQ).

The only parameter left is ISO. So I'll very often shoot in M mode with auto ISO. But a bird in flight will never expose right. So exposure compensation in M+auto ISO is something I've wanted to have for a long long time (without having to invest in a 1Dx). Right now I usually measure once and put it in full manual under a C mode then dial it up when I need it. Works mostly except with changing weather conditions.

I would love to simply be able to compensate whatever the camera measures for ISO by imposing a configurable eV value to it.

LucianParaian

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2015, 10:39:13 AM »
+1

I always wanted to have this feature available.
Among other things, I shoot weddings and for interiors I use M + auto iso (no flash), but the cameras aren`t always spot on with the exposure. So adjusting that with an EC feature, would be a major improvement!

motionblur

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2015, 08:52:23 AM »
I would also welcome this feature - the usecase is well described by chris_overseas above. I would just add that this feature is really useful for pretty much all photojournalistic work under bad and challenging lighting conditions, not just BIF.

I am aware of most of the workarounds described above, but they remain just that: workarounds - and are hardly ideal. EC assigned to the SET button and main dial (as in the firmware update to the 1DX), or even better, by just using the rear wheel directly, as in the other auto-modes, would be quicker when things are changing fast.

The fact that EC for Auto-ISO in M mode has been added to the 7DII and as a firmware update to the 1DX should be proof enough of the validity of this request.

Even my little Ricoh GRV pocket camera has a TAv mode that does this right (yes, there's the issue of semantics whether Manual mode with Auto-ISO is Manual mode at all, which it sort of isn't, so Ricoh are probably doing the right thing by calling it TAv, but I think most professional shooters that have been living for a while think of M as meaning manual control of Shutter and Aperture, as ISO has traditionally been a constant factor anyway as you couldn't change ISO mid-roll back in the film days. But those days are thankfully gone, and so we are presented with new opportunities - it just baffles me that CaNikon have been so slow to adopt this feature, as it should have been there right from the start in the first DSLRs)

Now, having to purchase a 1DX just to get this feature means paying top dollar for a soon EOL camera model that is too big and heavy anyway, and the 7D2 I already have, but its sensor isn't good enough under the really bad lighting conditions where EC for Auto-ISO in M mode would be most handy. That is 5d3 territory.

So, looking to ML for a solution seemed like the logical next step - but no luck, it seems.

I fully respect that the ML community want to prioritize other things, but I think the same applies the other way around; please respect the needs of professional shooters looking for solutions to challenging shooting situations, rather than persuading us that there's no need for this feature :-)

BrianHale

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2016, 04:44:40 AM »
Finally put ML on two of my cameras. One is a full spectrum convert, a rebel. The always on Exposure Simulation made shooting manual aperture lenses almost impossible with certain filters. Bam. ML fixed that.
The next was this very problem.
 I try to shoot butterflies in flight and close up. Subtle clouds can throw things off and this would make my life so much simpler.
I guess I'll stick with a teleconverter to give me the F8 minimum unless this becomes a new feature.

cdleighton

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2017, 02:39:21 AM »
Have I missed something. This thread, like so many other, is yet to offer a solution although there are a number of people advising us that we do not need it.

Marsu42 said: "but of course the idea of autoexpo is the absolute opposite of the traditional m mode.". This seems at odds with the ability to choose auto-ISO. M was all we had - manual shutter/aperture - until AE came in with a choice of priorities.

dmilligan said: "Personally I don't find much of a use case for EC on M because either", so he can leave EC at 0.0. But his statement does not discount that fact that others do want the feature - to the point that Canon has made it available on some model. dmilligan then goes on to say he/she uses Av or Tv, but often we want control over both.

Even in the days of film we has choices of aperture, shutter speed and film ISO. We always had one more input to manage those settings - exposure. With a night scene we want an exposure similar to what we see - underexposed. With digital camera set to auto exposure (including auto ISO), the camera tries to make the image similar to daytime. So I see there are four inputs managing the resultant image: aperture, shutter, ISO and desired exposure.

Oh when...

tryit

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Re: Exposure compensation in Manual mode
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2017, 10:49:16 AM »
I was very surprised that the 5D III did not have auto iso with EC.

Setting ISO seems to be a throwback to days of film, where ISO change needed replacement of the film. The Av, Tv & ISO "triangle" is now much more flexible, ISO is of equal rank in the equation as it can be changed instantly, precisely and automatically.

I take very varied shots. generally using Av mode. Generally "slow" shots are OK, but if something unexpected happens it can be missed or turn out blurry through motion blur. Auto ISO seems like a solution, but the idea of no adjustment seems crazy.

In general I think I know (in priority order)
1/ the DOF I want hence the Av. At least roughly.
2/ I know the speed I need - or at least that it should be no less than the numerical focal length ( e.g 1/200 for a 200mm lens).
3/ I know if the meter is going to be roughly right or will need compensation.
4/ with all that the iso can be set as near 100 as will work

I guess what I really want is an auto mode that reflects these priorities so I set ideal Av (optionally Tv) and EC and shoot. An algorithm would adjust ISO, perhaps up the Tv from the lens minimum and perhaps alter Av a bit if the iso was looking a bit extreme.

 

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