This slipped under my radar but Apertus announced their Beta/crowd funding intentions and it looks like a great deal for early adopters to help develop the system. https://www.apertus.org/2014-NAB-Axiom-Beta (https://www.apertus.org/2014-NAB-Axiom-Beta)
Ok, it's not Magic Lantern related (yet ;D) but they have referenced Magic Lantern when describing the Axiom's open source credentials. Definitely worth a look and worthy of ML input.
Plus there's an indirect dig at (I presume) Blackmagic in the write up :P
Thanks to your work on magic lantern people now understand why an open source firmware is important for filmmakers and the creative potential and technical capabilities of a device.
Countless times I have been asked why DOPs should care about the camera they are using being "open", they say they are not programmers so they wont do anything with the code anyway....
I hope to see many Magic Lantern developers/users in our AXIOM Beta early adopters community. We would love to hear your feedback and incorporate your ideas into the AXIOM Beta hardware/software. Since everything will be open and well documented I know its not as much of a challenge as when you have to blink out and de-compile Canons firmware but maybe it's still fun to focus more on the creative high level features :)
This is a really interesting project, Sebastian.
Any reason why you have opted for an external recorder, instead of having internal storage over PCIe? Simplicity for the Beta?
It just seems weird having onboard MicroSD card and not something faster.
The small size of the Apertus Beta seems kinda overshadowed when you need to hook it up with external recorders and whatnot.
Update: Ah ... I could just read what it says on the page. It's because of the Microzed board I suppose.
[message merged on this topic]Hi,
A crowdfunding as lunched to give start to a project of Open Hardware. The goal is to produce the Axiom, a camera that records in 4k 60fps on 15 f-stops of DR.
I'm Just 'marketing' because I follow this project grow since last summer, and I'm also involved with the GNU community, and the idea is pretty cool. The quality is equivalent to an Arri Alexa, but much cheaper, open community, and no-frills of "big brands", such as patents, licenses and other restrictions that limit your freedom. She has no restriction, including mounts can be exchanged, are not fixed, which allows you to use lenses, eg, Panavision, RED, Cooke without stress, on the same camera.
All hardware implementation is based on FPGA reprogrammed. I't run ArchLinux by default, on dual core ARM processors.
It is worth taking a look, folks:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera)Here is a video of the results (of course, this is just samples without post-production):
Sebastian,
While it indeed is something completely different than taking a mass produced camera and making it do the most incredible stuff that wasn't even thought of or deliberately held back, I certainly am hoping to see the same spirit with Apertus as we are seeing here.
The mere thought of a camera company giving you all the functions it CAN give, not only the ones it wants to give at a certain price point is really exciting.
If all the people that are using Magic Lantern would donate you 1 euro, even it were only to make a statement to the industry about opening standards, your funding goals would be met quite soon! (good that you accept paypal!)
Is there any change of overlapping functions? A lot of postprocessing tools have already been made. How about supporting the MLV codec?
Glad to see you talking about our campaign in here.
If some Magic Lantern users would be willing to support us that would be much appreciated! :D
I do not see any problems supporting MLV codec on the Beta if there is some interest from users.
In a first stage we focus on the image acquisition part only and so we do external recording only but its just a matter of time until we get to the point to create an internal recording module.
hi sebastian.
i just want to say that i am willing to provide help regarding MLV support in-camera.
just tell me what you need - detailed explanation, just some code or another developer ;)
i am from germany, so its relatively easy to cooperate i guess. (your team looks german)
BR,
georg
The image sensor seems the weakest link to me. It needs more DR. Too bad hardly any chip manufacturer want to be open and publish the specs. Going through all this trouble and ending up with a thin image may stand in the way of succes. Well, that and seeing how long it took for Red to come out of an actual state of beta. Or Blackmagic with some very weird policies and PR calling any problem with the camera a moot point. It seems so incredibly difficult to get it right. I really hope you succeed, but you'll need some time!
The CMV12000 chip has the specs online through the supplying Company (CMOSIS) Website I believe.
I know, I know. Funniest thing is the chip manufacturer seems to be only a couple of streets away from my house. Anyway, I took the effort to download the footage (http://files.apertus.org/AXIOM%20Alpha%20Sample%20Footage%20Selection%20Ungraded.mxf (http://files.apertus.org/AXIOM%20Alpha%20Sample%20Footage%20Selection%20Ungraded.mxf)) and found it quite problematic to work on. Very little color information, crushed blacks and whites. There's a big difference between creating a chip for machine vision and ending up with a pleasing natural image (no wonder the Alexa is a big box). There is indeed fixed noise (they've said that), but I also softened the image a bit because of the fine detail messing with the RGB pattern of the chip. Still prefer the 5dIII shooting MLV for now and how old is that camera?
I'm definitely rooting for them (although my financial contribution was rather symbolic) but they will need all the help they can get!
(I also wonder about the fan on top of the beta model of the camera)
In my cc test I can't get further than this and I don't like that. It looks so graded.
(http://www.blog.kurtaugustyns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AXIOM-Alpha-Sample-Footage-Selection-0014007b-mq.jpg)
full res: http://www.blog.kurtaugustyns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AXIOM-Alpha-Sample-Footage-Selection-Ungraded-0014007b.jpg (http://www.blog.kurtaugustyns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AXIOM-Alpha-Sample-Footage-Selection-Ungraded-0014007b.jpg)
@Sebastian:
do you have a sample raw frame and some details how the bits are packed?
OT: are you from munich?
Sorry for the delay, returned from IBC yesterday night :)
I am located in Vienna.
Another developer would be amazing :)
For still image storage we currently use a custom camera format that basically just writes the raw bits of each pixel in a 16 bit sequence, details about RAW16 as we called it are here: https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=RAW16
There is also the derived format RAW12 which as the name suggests just packs 12bit sequences as the CMV12000 can only go up to 12 bits.
Tuning the image pipeline is definitely some work ahead but hey if we succeed we can do it together and not wait until some company does it for us :)
Some images in RAW16 format are available here: http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/ALPHA/RAW/
Image Sensor datasheet is on Github: https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/alpha-hardware/tree/master/Datasheets
Visited IBC today. Another camera manufacturer confirmed he was using the cmosis chip as well. Looked good. They had in a more industrial housing and all the kinks worked out by now. Are Blackmagic and Aja using these as well?
(Aja footage can look much better than what they uploaded to the internet, btw, I've seen a much less contrasty version)
@sebastian:
for raw video i recommend to implement a variable bit depth in your zynq FPGA domain.
it is much more comfortable to reduce bit depth than reducing frame rate.
iirc canon format is like that:
you get a 14 bit data stream from the ADC hardware path, MSB leftmost.
so assuming, you get pixels A, B, C and D with their corresponding data bits aaa..., bbb... etc, the data stream looks like that:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaabbbbbbbbbbbbbbccccccccccccccdddddd...
leftmost 'a' is the MSB, rightmost the LSB
this data is shifted into a 16 bit wide shift register:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaabb bbbbbbbbbbbbcccc ccccccccccdddddd ...
and data is stored into memory through a 16 bit write on a LE machine.
so the resulting byte stream looks like that:
aaaaaabb aaaaaaaa bbbbcccc bbbbbbbb ccdddddd cccccccc ...
if you implement this in FPGA logic, most of the MLV effort is already done.
then you only have to packetize the payload of the video frames into a VIDF block per frame, update the
timestamp field with a 1µs accurate timestamp and write the data into a file.
before the first VIDF, there must be at least a MLVI (file header) and a RAWI (raw format description) block.
so the minimal solution:
MLVI, RAWI, VIDF, VIDF, VIDF, ...
then you can process the .mlv files with most of the tools.
after that, you can increment the number of blocks with additional information.
e.g. adding EXPO, LENS, RTCI, INFO, IDNT etc blocks to store all possible data.
some other idea, did you think of adding a gyro to your device?
then sample it every 1 ms and store a trace of camera inertial movement (3 axis, 3 rotation rates) along with every single frame.
this data can be used for offline deconvolution of shaky images. (ok assuming you have mainframe for the calculation...) ;)
how can i help you with development?
@g3gg0:
Thanks for the information!
regarding gyro: the Axiom BETA will feature an 9DOF IMU (probably more than one chip), and we are looking forward to evaluate it for image stabilization and other interesting ideas.
regarding help: probably best with documentation and/or examples.
Thanks,
Herbert
Apertus,
With the new campaign update*, am I the only one thinking about a mode to record all the pixels of the sensor, a bit like the Arri open gate mode (if I am correct?)? Anarmorphic, ... , reframe, lots of possibilties. Everything is possible if you control the hardware, right?
Also, this camerahead combined with the Atomos Shogun, could make a very lean camera package. (http://www.atomos.com/shogun/) Interesting!
*which comes at a perfect time and should give you a boost in funding.
KurtAugust,
You are right, since everything will be open source, you'll be able to design any type of recording you wish. Could well be anamorphic, crop parts of the sensor, etc...
The limitations here are not artificial (for example dictated by the marketing department) : they are based on the skills and interest of people working on the camera. As always in open source, if your desired feature is acclaimed by a lot of people it will happen sooner. Anamorphic shooting seems like something a lot of people will want.
Atomos Shogun is definitely one of the possible options for recording.
Some of you wondered about the sensor, so I did a quick analysis, from a few samples from Sebastian (Axiom Alpha, CMV12000).
This sensor has 4 analog gain levels: 1, 2, 3 and 4. I'll try to find out what ISO they correspond to, so you know how it compares to other popular cameras.
Hope you will enjoy pixel-peeping the dark frames :P
Response curve
Seems pretty much linear, with a tiny roll-off in highlights, and a strange shape in the right side (probably black sun correction).
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/response-curve/curve-gain1-20ms-40ms.png) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/response-curve/curve-gain2-10ms-20ms.png) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/response-curve/curve-gain3-10ms-20ms.png) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/response-curve/curve-gain4-10ms-20ms.png)
These graphs contain a rough guess for the white level.
Black level
This one is tricky - it changes with gain, exposure time, temperature and... overexposed areas (!), and it changes a lot. The spec says "Dark current 125 e-/s (25 degC)". There is an optical black (OB) area of 8+8 columns, which may help (I didn't test it).
On Canons, black level is clamped to 1024 or 2048 or similar values, with minimal variations.
FPN and row/column noise
Showing dark frames downsized by averaging 10x10 pixels (this process reveals FPN (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10111.msg105001#msg105001)).
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain1-darkframe.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain1-darkframe-delta.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain1-darkframe-delta-fix-8%2B8.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain1-darkframe-delta-fix-40%2B40.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain1-darkframe-delta-fix-200%2B200.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain1-darkframe-delta-fix-total.jpg)
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain2-darkframe.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain2-darkframe-delta.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain2-darkframe-delta-fix-8%2B8.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain2-darkframe-delta-fix-40%2B40.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain2-darkframe-delta-fix-200%2B200.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain2-darkframe-delta-fix-total.jpg)
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain3-darkframe.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain3-darkframe-delta.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain3-darkframe-delta-fix-8%2B8.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain3-darkframe-delta-fix-40%2B40.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain3-darkframe-delta-fix-200%2B200.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain3-darkframe-delta-fix-total.jpg)
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain4-darkframe.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain4-darkframe-delta.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain4-darkframe-delta-fix-8%2B8.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain4-darkframe-delta-fix-40%2B40.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain4-darkframe-delta-fix-200%2B200.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain4-darkframe-delta-fix-total.jpg)
Left to right: regular dark frame; difference between two dark frames (delta); delta after subtracting row average over 8+8 columns (first 8 and last 8 ); 40+40 columns; 200+200 columns; and - last image - after subtracting the average of every single row and every single column.
Top to bottom: gain = 1,2,3,4.
All graphs have brightness stretched after throwing away the 1% darkest pixels and 1% brightest ones. They show how uniform the noise is, not its magnitude.
After subtracting two dark frames (taken at a few seconds one after another), the image still has a really strong row noise (visually similar to FPN, but it's not fixed - it changes every frame). This one is hard to correct. CMOSIS recommends using the optical black areas for this, but they are way too small (8 + 8 columns) and their size cannot be changed. Subtracting their average from a dark frame fixes only half of the row noise. If you would be able to change the OB size to 40+40, this would reduce the row noise by about 2 stops, and a 200+200 OB would reduce it by 3 stops. Additional difficulty: the magnitude of the noise is different in the center of the image, compared to the edges.
The only solutions I can imagine are:
- submit a feature request to CMOSIS to change the OB size :P
- a really clever image processing algorithm (way beyond my skills)
- some hope for this noise to be correlated in adjacent frames.
Subtracting some value from every row and every column of the darkframe delta (so, 4096 + 3072 parameters) is enough for fixing the random row noise - the hard part is finding these parameters, because they change for every single frame. Here's how the dark frame deltas look after subtracting the average of every row and every column (gain=1..4):
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain1-darkframe-delta-fix-total.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain2-darkframe-delta-fix-total.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain3-darkframe-delta-fix-total.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain4-darkframe-delta-fix-total.jpg)
But subtracting some value from every row and every column of the dark frame is not enough - one has to average a large number of dark frames and store it as calibration data. Here's why (gain=1..4):
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain1-darkframe-fix-total.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain2-darkframe-fix-total.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain3-darkframe-fix-total.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/darkframe/gain4-darkframe-fix-total.jpg)
SNR and dynamic range
Using this method (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10111.msg117955#msg117955) (measuring the noise between two images and decomposing it into dark noise and shot noise), I've got the following results:
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/snr-curve/snr-gain1.png) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/snr-curve/snr-gain2.png) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/snr-curve/snr-gain3.png) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/snr-curve/snr-gain4.png)
Plotting these results on the ISO/DR graph, assuming a quantum efficiency = 60% (source (http://www.cmosis.com/news/press_releases/cmosis_enters_mass_production_of_the_cmv12000)), gives:
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/dr-curve/comparison-dr-apertus.png)
So, the base ISO on this sensor is about ISO 400, on the scale used by DxO. Canon ISOs are evaluated by DxO around 80, 160, 320... usually 1/3 stops lower than what you choose in menu. The sensor seems on par with the Nikon 1 V2, regarding dynamic range and low light behavior.
To find the SNR curves, I've subtracted two images of the same static scene, fixed the row noise, and sampled 17x17 patches randomly (5000 patches). To find the signal level (patch average), I took the average of the two images, and subtracted a dark frame (because of black level issues). I've measured DR from the point where signal=noise (SNR=0EV) until the clipping point, assuming the sensor response is linear (didn't do any linearity correction). More details in the ISO research thread (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10111.msg129268#msg129268).
The data set for gain=1 had some trouble with black level, so I did some guesswork here (adjusted it manually until it looked good).
I did not consider the infrared blocking filter - depending on how strong it is, it would shift the graph to the left side, effectively lowering the ISO.
Will binning to 1080p improve the dynamic range?
Yes. On this sensor you could do a 2x2 binning, which will improve the DR in shadows by up to 1 stop.
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/dr-curve/comparison-dr-1080p.png)
Binning is best done in the digital domain (software) - in this case, it will average all the noise sources. If it's done in analog domain, as on Canons (that is, before the read noise gets introduced), only the noise that appears before the binning circuit will be reduced.
Example: the 5D3 uses 3x3 binning in video mode (no pixels discarded), while the 6D uses 1x3 binning (with line skipping, discarding 2/3 of pixels). Yet, the 6D manages to have lower noise than 5D3, at all ISOs (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10111.725).
How accurate are your SNR/DR/ISO measurements?
I don't know, you be the judge. The measurements were not done in a laboratory - I simply asked Sebastian to point the camera at a bright window, include something black in the frame, and make sure the lens is really out of focus.
Repeatability is quite good - after running the test on two 5D3 cameras by two different people and two different test scenes, the results overlap quite well (see here (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10111.msg129268#msg129268)).
If any step from the testing procedure is unclear, just ask.
Some double-checks:
- measured gain ratios match the programmed gain ratios very well:
5.65 / 2.85 = 1.98, ideally 2
2.85 / 1.94 = 1.47, ideally 1.5
1.94 / 1.44 = 1.35, ideally 4/3
- measured dark noise at higher gains (10.15 electrons) matches the number quoted here (http://www.leti.fr/en/content/download/1184/18110/file/01_CMOSIS_L%20De%20Mey_%20Leti%20280611-1.pdf) (10 electrons).
- measured full well and dark noise at lowest gain matches the spec somewhat (13384/13.60 vs 13500/13).
- measured gain does not match the spec (e/DN), figure out why
What do you think about the HDR modes?
Axiom list 3 HDR modes on their website:
- PLR: somewhat similar to RED HDRx, combining 2 or 3 exposures in hardware (uses shorter exposure time in highlights). The spec say you can get up to 15 stops in this mode, but I think you might be able to push it even more. Didn't try it, but here's an opinion from somebody who did: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/t-299568.html
- "dual shutter" - similar to dual ISO; my converter is likely to work with minimal changes.
- alternate shutter every frame - similar to ML HDR video, with more potential because of the higher FPS.
All these modes are basically using a faster shutter speed in highlights - however, they will not improve the shadows. Therefore, they are equivalent to lowering the ISO - I expect it to reach crazy values like ISO 10 or maybe even lower.
All of these modes will have some motion artifacts. I don't know how bad they are, but I expect them to be not as bad as ML HDR video.
Will Dual ISO work?
Even if you find a way to configure the sensor to scan at two different gains, the improvement would be log2(13/10) = less than 0.4 stops. Not worth the effort.
What about long exposures?
Here we have a huge advantage: on this camera, we have access to the FPGA, which is much faster at image processing than the general-purpose ARM processor. One could capture short exposures and average them on the fly, which has a very nice impact on the dynamic range.
How much? Stacking N images will improve shadow noise by log2(sqrt(N)) stops - so averaging 64 images will give 3 more stops of DR, just like that. Assuming the hardware is fast enough to average 4K at say 100fps, a 10-second exposure could have a 5-stop DR boost. Without motion artifacts or resolution loss.
Where's the catch?
Read noise (in electrons) does not depend much on exposure time (on 5D3, the noise difference between 1/8000 and 15" is minimal (http://pastebin.com/KDq8bNeW)). Therefore:
- A short exposure would capture P photons with read noise R. Adding N frames would give N*P photons with read noise R * sqrt(N).
- A long exposure would capture N*P photons in a single frame (clipping N times earlier), with read noise R.
So, a stacked exposure, compared to a long exposure, would give:
- log2(N) stops of more highlight detail (think of it as if it were a lower ISO)
- log2(sqrt(N)) stops of more dynamic range
- log2(sqrt(N)) stops of more shadow noise (in electrons)
=> there's no free lunch. It's great for replacing a ND filter, but it's not ideal for astro.
At very long exposures (hours), things may be different - such a long exposure may no longer be as clean as a short one, or it might simply clip too many highlights. I don't have any experience with astro, so I'm just guessing.
Yes, I'm going to implement this in Magic Lantern as well - we have just found a routine that adds or subtracts two RAW buffers on the dedicated image processor (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13408) (without using the main CPU).
This sensor can do 300 fps. Can you do the above trick for video?
(credits @anton__ for this idea)
The sensor does not do 300fps at maximum resolution, but I guess it can do this at 1080p (even with hardware binning). Note, this is pure speculation. If the Axiom hardware is fast enough to add 1080p frames at 300fps (I have no idea if it is), you could create a 1/50 exposure (180-degree shutter at 25fps) out of 6 frames captured at 1/300. This means 1.3 EV boost in DR, at the cost of 1.3 EV of shadow noise (it will require more light). Good for emulating a low ISO, without motion artifacts like the other HDR modes.
Again - I don't know if the hardware is fast enough for this.
On the ISO/DR graph (scroll up) I've plotted what would happen if you would average 4 frames.
What about underclocking the sensor?
I don't know. If you can try it, feel free to send me sample images.
What about the other sensor - KAC-12040?
It has 12 stops with rolling shutter (3.7 electrons), and 10 stops (25.5 electrons) with global shutter, but it's a little smaller (4.7μm vs 5.5μm). I don't have any samples from it, so can't tell much, but judging from the specs, it's better in low light by about 1 stop (of course, in rolling shutter mode). If you have it up and running, feel free to send me some sample files.
It has analog gain (values mentioned in datasheet are <1, 2 and 8 - whatever that means). I don't know how much it improves the dark noise.
The datasheet hints that dark noise might get better at lower LVDS clock. Cool.
I've placed this sensor on the DR graph based on datasheet values (full well 16000, dark noise 3.7 or 25.5, max QE 47%, 4000 horizontal pixels, active width 18.8mm).
What about the CMV20000?
In low light it's probably as good as the 60D, judging from the specs.
My conclusion
Global shutter and 300fps are not free - you lose a little low light ability, but not much.
CMV12000 - full resolution
The base ISO is about 400 (maybe lower once you attach the IR blocking filter), and it goes to about ISO 1250 with analog amplification. At high ISO, the noise improves by only 0.4 stops. If my math (and also DxO and sensorgen's math) is not screwed up, this sensor is on par with the little Nikon 1 V2, and about 1 stop behind a Canon 60D.
The row noise (banding) is a major problem, and I don't currently have a solution for it.
CMV12000 - 1080p
I didn't test this mode, but with proper 2x2 binning (without introducing additional noise), this sensor would catch up (but that's because Canon does poor downsizing). At its base ISO, it's really close to the 5D3 in 1080p RAW at ISO 800 (note that 5D3 ISO 800 in LiveView is more like DxO ISO 500). In low light, it's only 0.5 stops behind the 60D in 1080p RAW (1734x975), and about 2 stops behind 5D3 in 1080p RAW ISO 6400.
Not bad for a very fast sensor with global shutter. And there are tricks to squeeze even more DR, without motion artifacts, like averaging 4 or 6 frames, or exploiting the black sun correction to squeeze more highlights.
KAC-12040
For low light, in rolling shutter mode, the smaller sensor is better on paper, despite its smaller size (I expect it to be about 1 stop better). I didn't test this sensor, so I've only plotted what I could figure out from the spec - but there are hints that low-light performance might be even better.
I believe this sensor will be very similar to GH4 in low light, and with a bit of luck, on par with 60D (which is 0.5-stop better than GH4).
In global shutter mode it's not that good for low light - you'll get better results from a smartphone (Lumia 1020).
But hey - you can choose between global shutter and low light, without swapping the sensor!
Hope the above helps you choose which sensor is best for you.
Anyway, if the sensor proves to be the weak link, it can be exchanged. Feel free to suggest better options - for example, if you can ask Sony about Exmor sensors, please do.
Raw samples: http://footage.apertus.org/AXIOM%20Alpha%20footage/ML/
More graphs: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xarr1i7vm7cwevd/AAA8OydI3VNZOTPQ-7Ta5aPRa?dl=0
Octave scripts on request.
Thanks for doing these measurements! Really interesting to study the graph with DR and to see how in general Canon catches up in DR on the Nikon in the higher ISO.
If I read the graph right, I'm a little disappointed in the Apertus chip. Even with HDR it scores worse than the Canon 5D3. Unless we theoretically use it at ISO 50. Is there really not a good DR chip out there? I don't care so much for resolution or size, I care more about color and sensitivity. The fixed pattern noise can be fixed, that what another camera maker using the chip told me. But they had invested much effort in it.
Also, quite worrying that Apertus are still 40k short of getting their program funded. At this point, it don't see it happening in its current form. Does this prove the big companies right, that we should pay big bucks to get the big tools?
(Combined with some traction for promising freshly announced camera's from Sony, Panasonic, Aja, etc)
And points for being clever to Magic Lantern, to build on hardware that already exists and is readily accessible?
It would be interesting to see Arri and Red chips plotted on there, just as a reference.
(edited because I needed to take in the info a bit more)
Very informative!
Hope the project gets off the ground because ML have really shown why an Open Source environment would be great for the users.
Quote from: KurtAugust on September 27, 2014, 08:32:20 AM
If I read the graph right, I'm a little disappointed in the Apertus chip. Even with HDR it scores worse than the Canon 5D3. Unless we theoretically use it at ISO 50.
Correct - but I'm afraid this is the price to pay for global shutter. I don't know much about the internals, but the other sensor (KAC-12040 ) gets much better in DR (and low light) once you switch to rolling shutter mode.
Quote from: KurtAugust on September 27, 2014, 08:32:20 AM
Is there really not a good DR chip out there?
I'm not an expert in this topic, but here's a hint from Samuel H (he also experimented with the CMV sensor, and probably researched the market a bit):
Quote
And then: Sony has a very limited range of readily-available sensors, nothing bigger than 2/3" IIRC. They sell bigger sensors to Nikon and Pentax, but won't talk to you unless you can put a few million dollars in the table and sign a contract that assures them you'll buy A LOT of sensors. And even then, I doubt they'll give you the F55 sensor. Maybe the one on the NEX-5N, but that one has to do line-skipping to record video.
But maybe somebody knows how to ask them nicely :D
Here's is a hint from jrista from canonrumors forum: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=22150.msg442597#msg442597
Quote
I have an astro camera with a CMOS sensor from Aptina that has 120dB of dynamic range using an approach similar to ML's dual ISO. That's 20 stops.
But looking at their page: https://www.aptina.com/products/image_sensors/
the largest ones are AR1011HS and AR1411HS. I've found some data about their performance here:
AR1011HS: http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2014/04/aptina-aims-its-1-inch-and-12-inch-4k.html http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/mta/2/2/2_95/_pdf
AR1411HS: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=6578704&tag=1
I've plotted them on the graph, based on the above data:
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/dr-curve/comparison-dr-apertus2.png)
but I'm afraid the KAC-12040 is still better, both in DR and low light. Note my KAC plot is incomplete (the datasheet only mentions the base ISO, but it does have analog gain - so it's likely better than the dotted black line).
Also see this: http://www.leti.fr/en/content/download/1184/18110/file/01_CMOSIS_L%20De%20Mey_%20Leti%20280611-1.pdf
(CMOSIS appears to have plans for better sensors, but I have no idea when they will be ready)
Many thanks for taking the time to measure all this, its indeed very interesting.
About row noise please check the application note from CMOSIS I emailed you (a1ex), they suggest applying a reference voltage to some additional sensor pins and report a significant improvement in row noise behavior.
About PLR:I also think it can go beyond the officially listed 15 f-stops - I ran tests with +6 F-stops and while the footage was not without flaws in general it worked and definitely looked promising.
I noticed though that color saturation decreases with the amount of PLR highlight recovery and the fixed pattern noise is getting stronger in those areas. Both effects might be possible to compensate in internal image processing. Maybe we can measure/benchmark those settings as well in the future.
Here is a quick +6 stops test where I varied the lens aperture to measure latitude differences before turning on PLR:
PLR HDR vs HDRx:As I understand it (I have not personally shot any HDRx footage on Red cameras) the differences are:
-) HDRx saves 2 exposure bracketed image streams and you can mix them together with different algorithms in post.
-) PLR HDR combines 2/3 (selectable) exposure brackets and mixes them together based on luminosity threshold on the sensor as the images are gathered already. The output is a single image stream - no post processing required to combine exposures.
-) with PLR highlights loose light sensitivity - shadows keep their light sensitivity - the curve can be tweaked in all aspects.
-) with PLR flickering can occur in highlights created by flickering light (AC tungsten, flickering CRT screens, magnetic ballast fluorescent tubes) as PLR reduces exposure time in highlights, but PLR actually does up to 3 exposure phases in one normal exposure time (not a single short one) so the effect might not be that visible -> will require more tests (I have not seen flickering in any PLR footage I shot yet - but I used PLR tweaking mostly with bright sunlight which will obviously not start to flicker :) )
About max FPSThe CMV12000 V2 can indeed go up to 300 FPS at full 4096x3072 resolution in 10 bit mode, in 12 bit mode this max FPS is reduced to 180 FPS according to official specs. By reducing the number of read rows (smaller window -> e.g. reading a 16x9 window from the 4:3 sensor) the max FPS will increase beyond the 300/180 FPS.
Other SensorsCanon doesn't sell their sensors, Sony only sells to partners or large volume orders and they only sell a small selection of the sensors, not their latest cinema ones. There are only a few companies who sell large diameter sensors beside the mentioned Kodak/Truesense, Cmosis, Aptina that are OnSemi (VITA12/16/25 series) and dynamax imaging which all offer similar specs for similar prices.
The biggest factor for us though is that the sensor datasheet can be shared without an NDA and that only Cmosis and Truesense agreed to. It is essential that developers and the community have access to this documentation and we will not incorporate any image sensor that has no open documentation. After all these measurements as a1ex did them would have been pretty much impossible otherwise.
Quote from: Sebastian on September 27, 2014, 01:12:47 PM
About max FPS
The CMV12000 V2 can indeed go up to 300 FPS at full 4096x3072 resolution in 10 bit mode, in 12 bit mode this max FPS is reduced to 180 FPS according to official specs. By reducing the number of read rows (smaller window -> e.g. reading a 16x9 window from the 4:3 sensor) the max FPS will increase beyond the 300/180 FPS.
That's really impressive. You mean, it can get 840fps at 1080p lines, and 1900 fps at 480 lines?!
That would be downright crazy; I bet g3gg0 can't wait to play with this sensor :P
(me too)
UH those fps possible with axiom beta? HMMMMMM nice :D
Quote from: janoschsimon on September 27, 2014, 03:55:18 PM
UH those fps possible with axiom beta? HMMMMMM nice :D
They are talking about the sensor itself. The Axiom Beta is limited by its hardware and HDMI output.
Quote from: a1ex on September 27, 2014, 01:27:33 PM
That's really impressive. You mean, it can get 840fps at 1080p lines, and 1900 fps at 480 lines?!
I am not sure if there is any additional limiting factor (like FOT) or if its just max fps = max_lines/read_lines * 300 FPS @10bit
But the increase should be almost linear (it was that way with the Aptina CMOS in Elphel cameras)
update: And yes, just because the sensor can provide those crazy frames per second rate does not mean we can output them. Processing them seems a much more likely option as the entire image pipeline in the AXIOM Alpha already runs in 4K@60FPS and we only downsize in the very last step for the HDMI port which can't handle 4K on the Zedboard.
If it can process the frames at this speed, I'm sold. I'm not that much into video, but I'm interested in this research (http://aggregate.org/DIT/ei20140205.pdf), and this device seems a very good choice. If somebody adds a viewfinder to it, I'll probably use it as a walk-around camera.
Now I think it's time for the ML community to jump in.
So far, 3 developers have expressed their interest in Axiom (g3gg0, baldand and me), so I think it's time to ask ML users - will you help us buy a few Axiom BETAs?
All you need to do is to help Apertus' indiegogo campaign for us, with any amount, and spread the word:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/692033
(yes, they accept PayPal)
And no, this doesn't mean we'll leave the Canon world. On the contrary - we'll get the chance to play with a documented camera that doesn't require reverse engineering, and learn a lot of stuff that we are currently guessing!
Thanks!
I already put 350 into the campaign To get my own Axiom beta. This Is really opensource.. (and now there are no excuses for me to step up/down to c++ ;))
Do you want a message with that? I guess I can donate some more.
Not sure what you mean, but spreading the word is probably the best contribution one could make, in my opinion.
And you are right - if every ML user would donate just 1 EUR, the campaign goal would be reached in no time.
donated! and shared, read about it when it was in alpha, hope you guys have fun with it!
Alex, I'm sorry. I mean a message accompanying the PayPal donation, so they know it's coming from the ML supporters and should be used to get you guys a Beta. It would be nice if it all adds up being a nice developers perk. No harm in that, better than an anonymous donation and more constructive than a lot of "buttons" or "karma"
I am in too. Will donate and block one of those Beta's for myself. Hope this will help promote the cause of the first real open source device ever. History in making ... And I want to be a part ;) :) :)
Edit: which model should I go for? Also, do I have to mention that I am ML supporter?
Quote from: KurtAugust on September 28, 2014, 07:29:19 AM
I mean a message accompanying the PayPal donation, so they know it's coming from the ML supporters and should be used to get you guys a Beta. It would be nice if it all adds up being a nice developers perk.
Ah, yes, a comment would be nice (here, or in the indiegogo page).
Thanks all!
donation made.
Apologies did not read the entire listing before promising to commit to the cause. I thought the entire investment will be just Euro 350 but the actual price is 2.6 Kilo Euro. :P
This is steep for me. So I will just contribute whatever I can and wish all the good luck to the developers.
Donation made
Quote from: Canon eos mI thought the entire investment will be just Euro 350 but the actual price is 2.6 Kilo Euro. :P
Well, that was kind of obvious that it can't cost less than entry leven canon dslr :P
Donation made.
(Let them keep the button)
Quote from: kitor on September 28, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
Well, that was kind of obvious that it can't cost less than entry leven canon dslr :P
I guess they call this stretching ones luck ;)
I just donated EUR 15.00 and indicated in the comments that the money is to be used to help ML developers buy an Axiom Beta.
A friend of mine and I have both backed an Axiom Beta camera in the campaign.
I expect to be able to help a lot with testing. I have been a fan of Magic Lantern for years and I am very pleased to hear that these two great projects are joining forces!
@Sebastian: Regarding the max fps, is the Axiom's max 60fps out a limitation of the HDMI controller only? In other words, would adding another IO-shield with for instance SDI be an option to reach higher framerate output? Or is the imaging pipeline on Zedboard a limiting factor in this too, capped at 60fps?
Many thanks for all the received donations! I really hope together with you we can get the campaign to a successful end!
Quote from: sanderbontje on September 29, 2014, 09:35:32 AM
@Sebastian: Regarding the max fps, is the Axiom's max 60fps out a limitation of the HDMI controller only? In other words, would adding another IO-shield with for instance SDI be an option to reach higher framerate output? Or is the imaging pipeline on Zedboard a limiting factor in this too, capped at 60fps?
Its a limit of the HDMI output, also note that its 60FPS PER port, so if we run the 3 HDMI ports in alternating frame mode we can actually get 180FPS in 1080p.
And yes different IO shields in the future might be able to go much higher with FPS, 3G-SDI (SMPTE 424M) though is also limited to 1080p60 but 6G-SDI might be an option (also dual link maybe), or direct PCIe - we will see what the future brings.
10 days to go and still 37 percent away from goal.
I don't feel very confident with these numbers and don't want to see this project missing it's goal.
What about more marketing by ML team?
- No link/info on download page or on ML's homepage (Twitter aside). Easy to implement and should make those people happy wanting to donate to ML team.
- Quite a small article on Slashcam with not that much emphasis about money. What about other sites (Cinema5D, DPreview, Lens Rentals + myriad others) that covered ML in some way or another?
My 2 cents for now. Have to check bank account and make some calculations ... yes, haven't donated yet.
about the frame rate, i am sure we can get beyond the specified limits.
but the frame rate does definitely not scale (inverse) linear with the number of pixel lines.
exposing and reading out the sensor is split in a few separate tasks, of which some are not related to the pixel count.
first you have to discharge the sensels by asserting some circuitry, then you have to start exposure by releasing the discharge line.
discharging is important, else you will get a lot more noise, or even integrate over time.
exposing the sensels can be reduced by increasing ISO (amplification) or providing more light.
reading out is the bottleneck for huge sensor areas, usually the width doesnt matter that much, the window height is the most expensive.
i am very interested in getting something like MLV ported to your Axiom platform, making it a "common" open source standard for raw video.
especially high fps modes raised my attention :)
Quote from: Walter Schulz on September 29, 2014, 03:54:45 PM
What about more marketing by ML team?
- No link/info on download page or on ML's homepage (Twitter aside). Easy to implement and should make those people happy wanting to donate to ML team.
- Quite a small article on Slashcam with not that much emphasis about money. What about other sites (Cinema5D, DPreview, Lens Rentals + myriad others) that covered ML in some way or another?
green from my side, we should push it a bit more aggressive.
Green from me too. We could put the information out on our Flickr accounts or whatever we individually subscribe to.
I was thinking of taking a still from the Axiom page and putting it on my Flickr account asking people to contribute as much as they can since the clock is ticking faster and faster ... Can hear my heart beat as I type this message ...
Edit: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera
This is the crowd funding link. These folks are just 30K short of their funding target. Give them a hand. We owe it to ourselves.
Please mention MagicLantern in your funding page. This will also help the collaboration between the developing teams to creat a magical camera.
This is what I have posted on my flick account. The pics are still loading and have not gone live yet.
Donation made :)
It is so frustrating that i will have £350 only after the 20 of october.. if only i knew of this before.. Anyone up for lending me £350? :D Only joking.. :)
The best advice I ever got: never go to the bank to buy a camera.
So don't feel bad if you can't buy a camera. Buy gear with money that you have, not with money that you don't have.
(Although it took a couple of hard lessons why it was the best advice ever given and I'm still learning)
But that's the the beauty here: we can support the bigger cause, not by spending a lot* but by spending a little**.
* which almost none of us have, and we are many
**which all of us have, and we are many
Now, all Apertus needs is footage that rivals the Alexa, Varicam etc. Now it only appeals to the tech crowds who understand it wider importance. Just my opinion. Sexy images sell camera's. Perhaps that's the main culprit right now. The footage just doesn't blow you away (at all) (even if we know it can be done).
Quote from: Walter Schulz on September 29, 2014, 03:54:45 PM
- No link/info on download page or on ML's homepage (Twitter aside)
Solved. I'm not exactly good at web design and marketing messages, so I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks!
What about your (and the other devs) contacts to "the outer world" as in photo/video related site owners/contributors? Just drop them a line about what's going on and why. They might be happy for some content in those halcyon days after Photokina.
Spread the word! ;-)
I did, but so far nobody replied.
So far, when the bloggers mentioned ML, it was from their own initiative, with very few exceptions. Sometimes they contacted me to ask more details. Now it sounds more like we are asking them to do us a favor (which doesn't seem to work).
Thanks for the effort! And marketing isn't my strong side, either!
Let's hope the americas are waking up and their monthly salary transfer will find it's way. We'll see how it works later this evening, I suppose.
Seems to be working. It was about 63,300 in morning and now has crossed 65,000.
Keep them coming world. If this thing comes alive it will be a paradigm shift .. pretty like the customisable google phone that is on the cards.
Just a random thought: if the hardware can get 300 fps at 4k, and is able to do some basic processing on them in real-time, even if it can't output all these frames, it could be very useful for stills.
The camera could shoot 300 frames and select the top 10 (that seem to be the sharpest ones), just like the "Best shots" options from silent pictures. Might be interesting to try for wildlife.
Regarding dynamic range: if the sensor can output say 600 fps at 1080p, to get a 1/50 exposure at 25fps (180-degree shutter), you could combine 12 frames. If it can output 800fps, and you are OK with a 360-degree shutter, you can combine 32 frames. Assuming it does proper 2x2 binning (without introducing noise), this would give:
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/dr-curve/comparison-dr-1080p-2.png)
Just a theoretical way to get up to 13.5 stops of DR in 1080p without motion artifacts (with frame averaging).
Of course, you are not going to get close to a Nikon D810 image resized to 1080p :P
They are getting closer to the goal €66,839EUR / €100,000EUR with 9 days to go!
a1ex, maybe insert one of these images on top of the news text in the ml homepage?
https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/845780/files/20140909142617-features-blueprint.gif?1410297977
https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/845540/files/20140909123250-image1.jpg?1410291170
Quote from: a1ex on September 30, 2014, 12:40:55 PM
Solved. I'm not exactly good at web design and marketing messages, so I'm open to suggestions.
Try something like that:
And play with bootstrap 2.3.2 (http://getbootstrap.com/2.3.2/base-css.html) style :)
<div class="container">
<p class="text-center">
<h3>News: Magic Lantern joins forces with Apertus to create THE open source camera.</h3>
<img src="https://apertus.org/sites/default/files/Axiom-Beta-Announcement01.jpg" class="img-rounded">
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/692033">We need your help. NOW!</a></p>
<small><a href="http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.25">Forum discussion</a></small>
</blockquote>
</p>
</div>
Do the math, canon eos m! We're not any nearer because time is running, too. Still far away from comfort zone. At 4 percent/d it will be an "interesting" finish because of slower weekend. And 350+ 4/3 perk is just ignored. Most attraktive perk now is 350+ Super35 but only 39 left = 13650. Will take a lot of people to throw in smaller amounts to fill the gap. Or lesser with a liberal hand not going for perks.
No, not comfortable at all!
Quote from: Walter Schulz on September 30, 2014, 05:09:42 PM
Do the math, canon eos m! We're not any nearer because time is running, too. Still far away from comfort zone. At 4 percent/d it will be an "interesting" finish because of slower weekend. And 350+ 4/3 perk is just ignored. Most attraktive perk now is 350+ Super35 but only 39 left = 13650. Will take a lot of people to throw in smaller amounts to fill the gap. Or lesser with a liberal hand not going for perks.
No, not comfortable at all!
Yes Walter, but they can always come up with the 3rd Batch of the Super35 to help cross over the finish line! All is fair in love and war. I am right now in the Singapore time zone. If I wake up in the morning with less than 10 Super35's remaining, I may also join the party! Lets see.
Have you noticed the ticker is running faster and faster. All the help is helping .. I can see it ... I can feel it! :)
--
-- --
-- --
-- -------- --
-- --
-- --
The Ants Go Marching One by One Hurrah Hurrah!
There indeed seems to be an big increase in donations the last. Which is good!
Worst case scenario: they end up at say 70.000.
Wouldn't you, if you were them, come up with the remaining 30.000 to fulfill the 100.000 goal and release that 70.000? Or would you let slip 70.000 just like that?
They could also get a loan easier once they have 70.000 in their hands to reach a 100.000 budget.
I'm sure indiegogo (and PayPal) make a nice profit on all this, but do you have a choice if you run a project?.
I know nothing about crowd funding, so I may be talking nonsense.
What would the backers want them to do: work with a 70.000 budget or get their money back and let them quit?
At this point, it may be even more about
-making a statement about open source
-building a community and customer base
Just some quick thoughts while following progress.
You may want to look into the rules about this.
If the goal is missed the backers will get their money back. Period.
What the people at Apertus will do if the goal is going to be missed is their part. They may want to fill the gap or not.
just read an interesting critique. where's an audio-in port? if its possible to encode the mediafile inside the body, it would be useful to give at least an unmanaged line-in to embed it into the file.
regards chmee
i've contacted a big german publishing house regarding the cooperation.
lets see if they publish something :)
€69,886EUR raised of €100,000EUR
8 days left
Over €3,000EUR added overnight!
Kurt: You can consider that we have crossed €70,000 since I pledge my €350 but will wait a bit more before I transfer. Don't know how I will come up with the rest though. I guess, we will cross the bridge when we come to it.
Another thought came to my mind - if 2 of us can come together to contribute the initial 350x2 for 2 of these and the rest is collected overtime to pay the remaining €4600 it would be great. The promoters of Axiom could always waive the shortfall in the end, if any. This will be a win-win for everyone; and a super win for the open source community.
Hey, I just had a brainwave. Why don't Alex, Trammell Hudson, g3gg0 and all start a crowdfunding initiative of your own since the excitement around open source and funding is beginning to pick up ...
I would rather commit €350 to the ML development since this is something I have lived, breathed, used, enjoyed so much. I would love to see it flourish if nothing else just for the simple but pure sense of belonging and being part of an ever growing and extended family. I have met so many selfless people in these forums and continue to forge new bonds. I am a lawyer by profession and there is no way in the world I would have met folks like you all if I wasn't given the opportunity to be part of this magic community. All this must mean something to everyone in it. There is nothing I can contribute accept show my appreciation and make a token contribution. But if this sentiment could be channelized and focussed the buzz it creates will be worth it.
You could keep a realistic funding target of €75,000 -€100,000 for Phase 1 and then depending on how this scores the world is your playground. The funding could be directed towards promoting the cause of open source with clear targets and objectives. Developers could be paid and intellectual property could be created and monetised if deployment was at an enterprise or corporation level. Rest all could benefit for free as long as they wished to play and have fun!
Think about it. It may just work.
Edit: With the money, you could buy a good number of Axiom's to get the HW side of the development program sorted.
And there is a lot of good quality reference material already out there to showcase the potential and capability of this endeavour.
@ Canon eos m,
Not necessarily opposed to your suggestion, but personally I am excited about the idea of what the ml team (joined by many others, hopefully) could do with an opensource camera, with no need to guess or reverse-engineer or otherwise fiddle about with a "black box" they don't know the contents of (i.e. Canon cameras).
Frank,the thing is everyone with ideas has to get their due either in cash or kind. Crowdfunding is a way to channelize and promote. If there are enough that share the vision the benefits to mankind and womankind will be enormous. Imagine a 3D printed open source satellite to Mars with the ML firmware and you will see where this is going.
The talent in Alex's core team is already there - programmers, testers, film makers, colourists, contributors - all working for a world where there are no boundaries to creativity.
I am sure others will join in this dream.
Crowdfunding as a concept is new to me but I can already see that it is full of potential. Others have done, the ML can do it better.
A SMALL STEP FOR ML, A GIANT STEP FOR THE FILM WORLD.
Also think what the Steadicam did to the film world. It was less of what it was but more of how the inventor spread the word. He trained potential DP's and camera crew to use this thing. The world caught on and the rest is history.
Also think of what the Gopro did for adventure sports. The guy who invented it still enjoys the action and the Gopro has been a hobby to him which makes him a few million bucks. So why complain.
Also think of the team that created the 5DM2. The video capability was just a by product. But there was more to come when the director who used the camera for cinematography ends miade the 5D a stuff of legends - Canon didn't. Similarly, Alex and team has made the 5DM3/7D a stuff of legends - Canon didn't.
Have you folks noticed almost €20,000EURO (about 30% of the funding) was committed between last night and the night before. 16 X €350EURO + 1 X €900EURO was committed during his period. We all rock. Want to hazard a guess. I will take the first shot. In my view, Axiom will make it to 130% of the target funding requirement.
Let's wait and see what happens. Looks like Olympus is in the game, too. This was already posted by s.o. else here in the forum. The prototype pictures from Olympus look like it's been the sister of Apertus Axiom:
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/olympus-open-platform-prototype-camera-at-photokina-2014-26189
http://opc.olympus-imaging.com/
Cannot come up with your numbers, canon eos m! 20.000? Not seeing this difference. And 20.000 are *exactly* 20 percent and not 30.
Sorry, but your math sucks.
My numbers: About 8 percent the last 40 hours. Good but not excellent and - as I said earlier - the most attractive perk (Super35 2nd batch) will drain before goal is reached.
Quote from: Walter Schulz on October 01, 2014, 07:57:07 AM
Cannot come up with your numbers, canon eos m! 20.000? Not seeing this difference. And 20.000 are *exactly* 20 percent and not 30.
I meant 20K is 30% of about 60K.
See your point. But then I am an optimist
Okay, my two cents are in for the Beta (actually 350 eur for the Super35 version)! Really looking forward to what happens!
since we announced supporting the axiom project, and encouraged ML users to donate, there were close to 11.000 EUR of donations within 4 days.
this money is of course not all due to ML users but the point is, i see a possibility for reaching the goal within time.
again such boost with the help of local press (like e.g. heise or some other publishing houses) there is a chance in hitting the 100k.
so i hope those people are going to pick up the final lap race here.
€71,377EUR
RAISED OF €100,000 GOAL
71% 8 days left
I just informed my friend about the project, he is an economic columnist at one of the largest online news portal of Hungary. Let's see what happens. ;)
Guys, you rock! I want to just hug you all :D
The donations started flowing again - I really hope we will make it!
Yesterday we also announced 16mm sensor options, monochrome sensor options and stretch goals:
------------------------------
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/#activity
edit: having to scroll 5 pages is not fun ;)
Quote from: chmee on September 30, 2014, 11:24:58 PM
just read an interesting critique. where's an audio-in port? if its possible to encode the mediafile inside the body, it would be useful to give at least an unmanaged line-in to embed it into the file.
regards chmee
1. as we rely on external recorders for video those have the dedicated audio inputs. That way recording audio/video in sync is also guaranteed.
2. We still have the right side IO shield which is not 100% defined interface wise, we only have bandwidth for "slow interfaces" which would include audio, genlock, timecode, trigger, etc.
Since these interfaces are electrically all similar (we will need to look into the details - so far all SMPTE papers we found did not talk about electronic characteristics of the signal at all....) we might just make it user configurable (aka defined in software) what the port does.
Quote from: Sebastian on October 01, 2014, 11:42:33 AM
The donations started flowing again - I really hope we will make it!
I might be renamed to Cassandra for nick or forum title but I have to state the obvious:
This will drain out next 24-36 hours and will leave funding at least 15,000 Euros short.
Current cashcow is 350 Euro perk "Super35, 2nd batch" and 21 (= 7,350 Euro) are left right now. Will stopped (at current rate) in given time-range.
350 Euro perk "4/3" is no runner and "16 mm" option - introduced today for whatever reason - is no seller, too. And I don't expect this will change.
As of today we failed to reach "the masses" to convince them throwing in small amounts. Look up the list and count up. And here, too: I don't expect this to change. We (as in Apertus Axiom Beta funding project) are not that present in the media, we're simply not a big topic for whatever reasons.
Time for Plan B ... Fundings running in will drop soon and harsh!
maybe they are going to add a super35 3rd batch.
the media refuse to mention the campaign and the beta in general. they seem to be more interested in paid advertisement.
The media didn't refuse to cover the project. Crowdfunding start was covered quite well.
But ML/Apertus co-operation wasn't a topic (apart from Slashcam (ML friendly, always!), I give you that.
Quote from: Walter Schulz on October 01, 2014, 10:41:59 PM
As of today we failed to reach "the masses" to convince them throwing in small amounts.
I'm afraid that the "masses" are not likely to appreciate effort of producing something that is not directed to them. After all we are talking about Beta camera, which will cost 5990EUR +VAT in its bare, most desirable version. And it relies on external recorder even to capture sound. Not to mention cost of additional stuff like batteries, viewfinder(?) etc. And in fact Beta prototype doesn't even exist, yet, as far as I understand, so nobody knows how much will battery last, will it overheat or not, will picture quality be better than what we can see now...
I understand that supporting this open source initiative might have some positive influence on ML development, but to convince an average DSLR shooter to take part in it, it needs to offer a bit more than "Social karma" or a T-shirt. To be honest, I'd prefer to spent that money directly to development of ML, rather than on a camera that is clearly addressed to a totally different market.
Sorry if my opinion is disappoints you, but I wish you all success, regardless.
no, your opinion is not disappointing by any means.
the beta will cost 2300 for backers. thats half the retail price. you then need an external recorder and viewfinder or monitor and batteries. that means you can get a cheap (or expensive) atomos product or you can use a laptop with a hdmi or sdi to usb external interface. those sony batteries are cheap. also for sound you need an xlr (or not) mic preamp. all of the above according to your needs. all of the above are not that expensive and many people, including dslr shooters already have some of them or all of them.
do you want links for these solutions to check their prices?
i think the total sum of the above are a fair price to pay for a camera that we will be able to hack like never before, like no hacker or developer or engineer could ever imagine on proprietary products. thats what made the magic lantern developers to support this project.
and we can follow them to the core of image acquisition.
the picture quality we can see now is only a fraction of the quality the beta is set to achieve.
and why should the beta camera overheat?
these issues you address are actually a matter of the amount of trust you can show to the developing team.
and if you dont feel like trusting them thats of course totally understandable.
but trust is a complicated issue.
you trust the manufacturers and the engineers and the developers of airplanes and cars and operating systems and software and mobile phones and mobile apps and laptops and computers and tablets and many many more to do what has to be done so that their creation works for you and works safely.
why dont you trust these apertus (and ML) people as much? because the work under a different business model?
Trust is a complicated thing and needs to be earned.
ML has earned the trust of a lot of people.
The Axiom folks have a long way to go and I trust they will deliver since they have demonstrated the same attributes as our ML developers. However, the advice is to spend the money wisely because many a crowdfunding projects have gone bust - even the ones that exceeded their funding target by 10 times or more.
For example, your 4/3rds and 16mm sensors are not selling. Is means lack of strategy and understanding your target customers.
I contributed a token amount a few days ago and now will book one camera. Any suggestions on which one to buy and why?
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Opted for Super 35 second batch.
I think I made something crazy - I'm not sure, if this toy will be useful for me:
1. I need Active Canon EF Mount from the start. Iris control and optical stabiliser powered at least.
2. I don't want to buy external HDMI recorders - I have a lot of fast CF cards(and SSD, USB 3.0 HDD) already.
As far as i know, it,s impossible to record comparable in quality with raw data through HDMI.
I wonder, why, the heck, 3 HDMI and no one SSD?
I would prefer this FPGA to track objects I point on with finger on touchscreen in focus.
3. It has no any buttons and dials, ok, but touchscreen or ability to use tablet via Wifi as touchscreen with liveview is must.
4. External controller, monitor, power supply, the rig to mount all these on and elefant to carry - how much it will be cost and weight?
4. A lot of software to implement - for camera itself, external/smartphone controllers and so on - will it be reliable?
5. There is a 3k$ for all I dream solution on the market today.
It can't do more than 30 frames per second in 4K and focus control, but they have better sensor and time till next summer to meet competition with AXIOM.
LRF:
The Magic Lantern team has done so much for us. If they were asking for ice cream, I'd say "Hell, have two." As it happens, they love to tinker with cameras (and seem to be pretty good at it too), so I understand they want to get something in that that direction. How can I say no?
Canon eos m:
I'm quite interested in the 16mm factor and 4/3, but if the budget is there, why not go for the biggest chip and shoot in cropped mode if you want the deeper depth of field. I prefer a 4/3 for depth of field, which is much more as I perceive the world, but for now, all my lenses are full frame (except for the Bolex collection, which are RX collimated... different story). Seeing the gear you already have (your signature), I'd say, go full frame!
I also think the development will focus on the CMV12000 first as most people want that. With the other chips following later.
mothaibaphoto:
5. If the camera of your dreams is on the market, why not buy it and be done with it? I think your expectations for the Beta are quite unrealistic. They are very clear in what they are going for. Don't blame them if they don't meet your expectations.
Think of it like this: you buy the camera you need and that exists today. When the development of the Axiom gets at the point where it meets your requirements, you claim your perk and get the camera at great discount. You win. If you don't want the camera: sell your perk to someone else. Perhaps even with profit. If they go bust: your loss.
aombk:
come on... bite the bullet... before someone else snatches that one perk... :-)
---
I have to think of Tesla, he had very advanced ideas. Quite often, he couldn't get his development funded, because his advanced designs would destroy the market for the inferior products everybody was making tons of money on. Now we all use his ideas. Economics aren't an assurance for human progress at all. Most companies prefer a slow steady progress instead of rapid development. Much more profit to reap.
It may very well happen that that the Axiom project fails at some point, but even then, we may all benefit because of the progress made.
Alex,
Any chance of plotting the data of the CMV20000 on that chart?
cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv20000
How does 66dB dynamic range compare to 60dB? I guess the advantage would be more in resolution than DR, I guess?
As your main interest is photography, it may be interesting to have that extra resolution?
Quote from: aombk on October 02, 2014, 02:49:13 AM
the beta will cost 2300 for backers.
I'm glad for you, that you don't have to count money before spending ;)
The Beta will cost an European backer around
3 200 EUR, not 2 300 EUR.
Why? 2300 EUR + 350 EUR perk cost + (circa) 20% VAT, because, as far as I understand this sentence correctly, prices shown are prices netto: "Local taxes (VAT), custom fees or duties may apply when receiving your AXIOM Beta."
Total - 3 180 EUR.
Regular price will be 5 990 EUR + VAT = circa 7 200 EUR
Again, please correct me about VAT if I'm wrong.
Quote from: aombk on October 02, 2014, 02:49:13 AM
you then need an external recorder and viewfinder or monitor and batteries. do you want links for these solutions to check their prices?
No, thank you. I did it long ago, when deciding what system I'm going to need and what I want to carry around with me while shooting.
Quote from: aombk on October 02, 2014, 02:49:13 AM
you trust the manufacturers and the engineers and the developers of airplanes and cars (...) why dont you trust these apertus (and ML) people as much?
Because I buy my cars and airplanes when they are already built and tested by crash test dummies and highly paid tests pilots. Call me a miser ;) And ML team has absolutely nothing to do in that sentence.
Quote from: KurtAugust on October 02, 2014, 09:35:34 AM
LRF: The Magic Lantern team has done so much for us. If they were asking for ice cream, I'd say "Hell, have two."
Tell me where to send money (not Bitcoins which I don't have) for Magic Lantern development, and I add a fruit salad to you ice cream for them.
I don't want to start a flame war, just trying to explain my (maybe shortsighted) point of view. Good luck.
I too think a solid sata interface or the like would be much better than three experimental hdmi interfaces. What is a nice sensor with capabileties of 4k 300fps good for, if I can't capture the data? May it be internal or external.
In addition the rising cost for a working system are not promising (active ef mount, battery mount, recorder interface, display, recorder).
Regards,
Kontrakatze
Quote from: LRF on October 02, 2014, 11:29:29 AM
Tell me where to send money (not Bitcoins which I don't have) for Magic Lantern development, and I add a fruit salad to you ice cream for them.
As explained many times, ML should stay non-commercial.
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13399.msg129541#msg129541
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6367
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8545
However, Apertus has nothing do to with reverse engineering, so the commercial side is OK for them. And if things go well, I might be able to work with them and no longer rely on a daily job to pay the bills - that should be a huge win for the ML project. I've already explained this here: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13456.msg130054#msg130054
=> please donate to Apertus, just as you would do for us:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/692033
I've found some old DNGs on the Apertus website (October 2013), which had strong FPN, so I took one of them and tried to fix it.
The settings were unknown (I believe they were not shot at the base ISO), and none of the dark frames from the previous experiment worked. So I've tried to estimate the FPN and row noise from scratch, like this:
- used a bilateral filter to remove low-frequency details and strong edges
- used two strong line filters (one horizontal, the other vertical) to detect the FPN from the remaining high-frequency details
The result is not perfect (the correction introduced some artifacts, and there is still some FPN left), but the improvement is noticeable. If the Beta hardware will have lower FPN than the Alpha (as Sebastian hinted here (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg129731#msg129731)), the remaining noise should be much easier to fix in software.
The image was overexposed by about 2 stops, but the blue channel was not clipped at all. It was too much for ufraw's highlight recovery algorithm, so I've applied my own (I've talked about it here (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9458.msg91590#msg91590)).
The image also showed artifacts (like these (http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~par24/rawhistogram/40D_Demosaicing/40D_DemosaicingArtifacts.html)), so I've used the VNG4 algorithm for demosaicing to avoid them.
Black level was also unknown, so I've also guessed it (0.1 percentile).
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/fpn-fix/image02.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/fpn-fix/image02-fpnfix.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/fpn-fix/image02-fpnfix-hilite.jpg)
Left to right:
- original
- after fixing FPN
- after fixing FPN and recovering highlights
Developed with UFRaw + enfuse (DNG developed at roughly 0, +2 and +4 EV).
Full-size images, DNG files and UFRaw settings:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j8xalnjw5cn7w8t/AAAi43GM33R2Q6jHP4JdwDNqa?dl=0
Feel free to push them and show your results, but don't expect to be as clean as a dual ISO image :P
Quote from: KurtAugust on October 02, 2014, 11:08:49 AM
Any chance of plotting the data of the CMV20000 on that chart?
It's in my first post from this thread (only the base ISO, from the datasheet):
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/dr-curve/comparison-dr-apertus.png)
The base ISO seems on par with 5D3's ISO 400; the question is how much it will catch up at higher ISOs (can't tell from datasheet). It seems slower (30fps at full resolution according to this (http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv20000)). Sebastian, do you know if there's a V2 for this sensor as well?
Alex,
Sorry, I had forgotten about it being already on the graph.
The work on the dng's looks very good. Poor Photoshop does a terrible job on it. Axiom should be exited about your collaboration, and it seems they are!
Call me crazy but I'm on board :-)
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:)
Sebastian: We need more FF's (CMV12000)
I think if 80% of the target is met Sebastian gets to keep the money.
haha, thank you LRF :)
Quote from: Canon eos m on October 02, 2014, 02:38:01 PM
I think if 80% of the target is met Sebastian gets to keep the money.
Just RTFM. There will be no cashflow from indiegogo to Apertus if goal is missed.
Canon eos m: Where did you find FULL FRAME ???
aombk: Please, give me a link to 4k HDMI recorder with 60 FPS. No, dont' offer me to connect a couple of 2000$ Atomos Shogun
Quote from: mothaibaphoto on October 02, 2014, 04:15:50 PM
Canon eos m: Where did you find FULL FRAME ???
aombk: Please, give me a link to 4k HDMI recorder with 60 FPS. No, dont' offer me to connect a couple of 2000$ Atomos Shogun
My fault I meant Super35 (APS-C) sensor. I was thinking the bigger sensor but wrote the wrong description.
mothaibaphoto, you got me. there probably isnt one. but what is your point? that you wont be able to use the camera to its full potential once it is released? thats not news you know...
Just found something on campaign's web site:
perk "AXIOM Beta Super35, 3rd batch". 99 due June 2015.
Yes, keep 'em coming ...
EDIT: About 25 "Axiom Beta Super35" perks came in last 24 hours. That's quite remarkable, I think! Cassandra-mode dormant now.
Yay ;)!
I really like how the ML logo is on top of the heap ... it is where it deserves to be ... the king.
2nd super-35 batch pledged out. Still 99 to go on the 3d batch :-)
Shame I don't have 2300+ laying around right now.
They should have run the campaign over 2 months instead of one.
i dont know if there are some constraints regarding campaign duration, fees and other annoying stuff.
Sorry, don't understand, PressureFM!
You have to pay 350 Euro now to opt for such a perk and have to add 2300+ (may change up/down) in April, Mai or June 2015 to get a very basic body which will need additional hardware to be usable as movie came. And it's called Beta for a cause, I think. And you don't have to have 2300+.
Of course you can stay back and opt out. You donated 350 Euros then. Or try to sell your perk, then.
And I pretty much hope all participants understand "we're not there yet".
Therefore I don't understand in which way a campaign running 2 months will change things for you.
With 3rd batch Active Canon EF Mount will come true.
One more batch for SATA 3.0 !!!
Cool overview of the state of the project 1-1/2 years ago: https://www.apertus.org/node/124
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Good night ppl!
Mhm ...nice thing - if you have a few thousand laying around and want to make big movies.
If I remember it right ML was supposed to "make a 500,-$ camera worth a few thousand $ camera" like one person said at the beginning and it started with a cam like the EOS 50d.
Since a few month everything fells like "let´s make a 5000,- $ or more camera ruin Hollywood" - this started with the 5dmark3 / raw ...
I don´t know but my impression is that the spirit of Ml got totaly lost - no new official version since ... anyway - a loooong time ... But mainly a great work on the top cam 5d3.
90% of the 5d owners I know - especial the profesional ones don´t use it even if they got it - and I know a few. RAW? Too much waste of time for them. If realy needed for a client they rent a propper cam because the budget is there.
Anyway - ML is a great thing and the Apertus Axiom idea is too - but the cams who really need ML know how (650d, 700d, EOSM, ...) are for shure not realy in focus since month.
It´s more like: It would be nice if someone cares for them too because we are more concentrating on making the "state of the art" cams to the "super state of the art" cams. And in reallity it´s not used like the ML team might think.
My guess: The Apertus Axiom Beta will not really become "the one" because there are just not enough people who need it and there will be not enough marketing and especial service power against Canon, Nikon, Sony, ... - but one or the other ML programmer may get good offers from the industrie.
Don´t get me wrong - I say thanks for all the great work in the past and I wish you all the best - it helped me to make my film business work with affordable equipment and lifted me to a higher level - but it seems to be over for youngsters who want to start now.
Or do you really think they got enough money for a Apertus Axiom + proper lenses + ...? Defenitly no!
ML was a good idea - but I´m afraid in the future mainly for the (maybe new) industrie. Like usual for growing ideas like ML is.
UPDATE:
Walter Schulz just wrote that ML was started for the 5d/2 and not for the cheap Canons like I wrote - ok, if it is so I had a wrong impression when I realized ML first time. Sorry for that one!
But I still think the real thing that made ML interessting for a uge amount of people (and upcoming professionals) was and also would be in the future to "make a 500,-$ cam worth a 5000,-$ cam". A great idea that did work and made the industrie sweat.
You got your premise wrong:
Magic Lantern was programmed in 2009 by Trammel Hudson for the EOS 5D Mark II. Body was priced $ 2,699, € 2,499, £ 2,299 when introduced.
You may revise your post.
Quote from: funkysound on October 03, 2014, 04:11:36 AM
...
Anyway - ML is a great thing and the Apertus Axiom idea is too - but the cams who really need ML know how (650d, 700d, EOSM, ...) are for shure not realy in focus since month.
It´s more like: It would be nice if someone cares for them too because we are more concentrating on making the "state of the art" cams to the "super state of the art" cams. And in reallity it´s not used like the ML team might think.
My guess: The Apertus Axiom Beta will not really become "the one" because there are just not enough people who need it and there will be not enough marketing and especial service power against Canon, Nikon, Sony, ... - but one or the other ML programmer may get good offers from the industrie.
...
a1ex said it now several times. He hopes to find a way to pay his bills so he has more time to contribute to ML.
As an example I just remember the days where CyanogenMod founder Steve Kondik has been hired by Samsung to work with them. Some time later he decided to leave Samsung again and cyanogenmod Inc was born. Theres also the "ONE" a phone by Canogenmod Inc. In all that time development never stopped for Android phones. Once Google pushed out a new Android version all the goodies from old versions were merged asap into a new cynogenmod version. This was possible because there is are much more contributors. And that's what lacks for ML development: contributors, device maintainers etc...
As said earlier the Cyanogenmod story comes into my mind when thinking of Apertus. The campaign in Indiegogo will successfully reach its end. Afterwards devs will come together and do some stuff. Some of you might be concerned about ML development. But time will tell what happens. This is going to be fun here once the first 7D Mark2 owners pop up here and ask for a build. Armv6 cpus have to be supported. I also seen that electronic viewfinders will be used in EOS 750D. So lots of fun to pop up here. Why not join the party and learn the basic skills around ML development?
I´ve made my donate. I think A1ex should go and create an AXIOM ML Camera or sth like that for less money than super pro level. An standard model for 1000 Euros. It´s an idea. I will miss him ;)
Quote from: budafilms on October 03, 2014, 10:54:58 AM
I´ve made my donate. I think A1ex should go and create an AXIOM ML Camera or sth like that for less money than super pro level. An standard model for 1000 Euros. It´s an idea. I will miss him ;)
I agree on this one - there would be a uge interest all over the world.
Quote from: nikfreak on October 03, 2014, 08:38:08 AM
a1ex said it now several times. He hopes to find a way to pay his bills so he has more time to contribute to ML.
I know and I always hoped he/they will find a way.
I also thought it would be better to charge little money for ML so he and the others would be able to pay the bills - than suffering and not beeing able to work on ML the way they would like to.
Whatever critics I wrote and will write - still: Thanks to a1ex and all the others for this great work. they offered for free!
Wonder why Alex is tied down to the reverse engineering way of doing things.
He is so creative that given the time and funds he can create original magic 10X better.
Would love to see him succeed and do well.
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Walter I think they will land safely. But I am wondering how they will sustain interest in this project in the long term with the 16mm and 4/3rd not selling at all.
A constant dynamic range of 14+ will be the only interest factor that I can think of.
Quote from: Canon eos m on October 03, 2014, 01:27:39 PM
...
But I am wondering how they will sustain interest in this project in the long term with the 16mm and 4/3rd not selling at all.
...
Don't worry as long as we bring up a new topic and make it sticky at least ML users will always be aware of the project.
QuoteCountdown to April 2015 - planned delivery
200 days left
Quote
Wooooops new launch / delivery date November 2015
300 days left
And don't forget! After the beta campaign we need a new thread for the Gamma and place countdowns in there cause everybody wanting the beta would want a better cam than the Beta. meanwhile I would want to create a new thread for QC where we countdown days left to receive a replacement delivery cause each and every manufacturer had quality issues when bringing out a new cam.....
Guys I am just kind of joking but on one side....
Sorry. ~3.000euro is cheap for "superprolevel". This time its the ability being part of it, creating some cool devices.
we are not saying:
> this is good, you have to help no matter what.
we are saying:
> we love the project and idea, want to become a part of it not just because it helps us understanding camera internals.
> so if you ever wanted to donate to Magic Lantern, do us a favor and help them.
Magic Lantern is not about making cheap cameras video-monsters so people can sell their service with much less financial effort.
its about the vision of getting things out of your camera that you never expected. "unleashing" the fury the hardware offers.
so if you think the same and want us ML developers to help in being constructive and creative on the next level, feel free to support us.
we really appreciate the strong and loyal userbase we established over years.
in my opinion, if we put some spare time into axiom beta, even magic lantern will benefit a lot.
just imagine that two different camera systems are built on top of an unified toolchain. think about Dual ISO and MLV establishing and evolving.
one things which came up in my mind when i read that lines:
- too bad for canon, cause new users would not buy a canon camera anymore, for filming porpose.
what makes me a little bit confused is that a1ex wrote somewhere that he thinks to leave the video side of magic lantern, so why is there such an euphoric interest in a video camera? i do not quite understand it..
however, if! the cam will ever hit the market and the ml team is involved in the software/hardware side from the very beginning, i think this will be a big blackmagic cinema or even arri or red rival.
however, i am curious about it :)
Quote from: g3gg0 on October 03, 2014, 03:49:33 PM
...
just imagine that two different camera systems are built on top of an unified toolchain. think about Dual ISO and MLV establishing and evolving.
Now that would be awesome. Btw what OS is Axiom going to use? Some kind of RTOS or even linux?
Quote from: swinxx on October 03, 2014, 04:00:24 PM
what makes me a little bit confused is that a1ex wrote somewhere that he thinks to leave the video side of magic lantern, so why is there such an euphoric interest in a video camera? i do not quite understand it..
- as you already know, some people took my video-related work and sold it for their own profit, ignoring the GPL license (which was the biggest motivation killer)
- this is an open source camera (more exactly, a development kit) - why limit it to video? (sure, the Beta is clearly video-oriented, but it's open, maybe somebody will create a configuration optimized for stills, who knows)
- do you know any open source camera designed for still photos?
- do you expect me to develop one from scratch?
- I see this as a possible replacement for my job (now it's OK, but I'm looking for something better), so it might not be just a spare-time project for me personally (and I don't mind developing video tools to pay the bills, and still photography as a hobby)
Well, I just put in my two cents worth. It is now at €88,723 . . .
What happened now, Sebastian?
"Super35, 3rd Batch" not longer there ...
Not delighted about this ...
Cassandra moving in her sleep ...
Quote from: Walter Schulz on October 03, 2014, 10:17:30 PM
What happened now, Sebastian?
"Super35, 3rd Batch" not longer there ...
Not delighted about this ...
Cassandra moving in her sleep ...
3rd batch moved to top, now "featured".
Quote from: nikfreak on October 03, 2014, 07:52:13 PM
Now that would be awesome. Btw what OS is Axiom going to use? Some kind of RTOS or even linux?
The AXIOM Alpha prototype uses a custom Linux kernel and a Raspian image in a chroot environment to separate "gimmicks" like the webserver/etc. from the essential "life-support" system.
The current plan for the Beta is to have one core running Arch Linux and the other dedicated for bare metal applications related to the camera functions, or alternatively both cores running Arch.
These 300fps in the CMV12000, is that in 4k(approximately) resolution or in lower like 1080p ?
350 + 2300 euro for a camera which doesn't record internally is a lot of money.
But damn, ML shows how powerful opensource is...and this is fully open, no backwards engineering....
Seriously in doubt. I Like the convenience of my 6d and 17 seconds of 1728x720 raw MLV recording with sound....
AXIOM Beta, Beta model...but 300 fps...would love to have a high FPS camera.
No active EF mount...or will there be an active EF mount if you're in the 3rd batch of the CMV12000 ?
There's something written on Indiegogo about EF mount once 120.000 is reached.
This is a typical marketing canibalism.
It´s not negative: future ML users - especially 5d video users - going to buy Axiom camera in the next months or years.
Now, are buying BMCC 4K for less money than a Mark III.
Axiom is getting this from here, and the open source software. And Canon is not showing a revolution in video in for example 7D mark II.
But, look at this!
If A1ex - I´m fan, I know - going to work to Black Magic Cinema Open Source, ML users future buyers going to get an AXIOM camera? (Pay Attention Black magic ;)
A1ex is a brand.
And a personal opinion to A1ex: why not do the change for the next level?
last video (in under 1 minute) doesn't impress me. Aggressive sound, flickering, awful skin tones. I'd like to see something like that: http://vimeo.com/87374695
Yes, I want the same blond into the sensor. :P
8) +1
The Vimeo sample from the Arri and BMC were both awesome. I have a 5DM3. I will not get my next till it is at least as capable as the Arri.
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The last mile! 8)
Quote from: a1exFeel free to push them and show your results, but don't expect to be as clean as a dual ISO image :P
If the pink/purple things can be fixed during the building up the DNG file, then
this will be wild and it will rock!
Quote from: mothaibaphotolast video (in under 1 minute) doesn't impress me. Aggressive sound, flickering, awful skin tones. I'd like to see something like that: http://vimeo.com/87374695
Don't forget, that this is an open developement and I hope the international community behind this will achieve that quality what you expect.
Quote from: budafilmsYes, I want the same blond into the sensor. :P
But the reddish-brown with the OPEN decolletage will be as good as the blondes, you can choose later... :P
I pushed a1ex's "image02-fpnfix-hilite.DNG" in ACR and graded in AE + added some grain:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g7lfrm7ccc1g063/AADHVFTBhcOT9MpHwQBNCCwfa?dl=0
surami: Regarding your DNG
I see some tweaks made in ACR with it: lets say, Exposure +0.7, Contrast -100 and so on. I didn't see any color related tweaks, except Saturation -35(By the way, -100 looks much better :) ). Did i miss something? What does it mean "graded in AE + added some grain" and where is the result?
Regarding image itself - it's probably captured under harsh lighting condition with wrong exposure. I hope it's not a sensor failure/limitation.
Quote from: mothaibaphotoI see some tweaks made in ACR with it: lets say, Exposure +0.7, Contrast -100 and so on. I didn't see any color related tweaks, except Saturation -35(By the way, -100 looks much better :) ). Did i miss something? What does it mean "graded in AE + added some grain" and where is the result?
Regarding image itself - it's probably captured under harsh lighting condition with wrong exposure. I hope it's not a sensor failure/limitation.
Well I tried to get a flat frame before I import into AE. I'm not an expert colorist, but as I read and experienced, it's the best starting point in the grading process. The best would be, if the Axiom could process eg. something called MagicLOG (flat) frames straight into DNG (MLV) and after that people could edit it as they want (save presets etc.).
So I imported the ACR "tweaked" flat DNG into AE and I tweaked again on the timeline (contrast, curve, color, saturation, grain, etc.) with a preset, so simple. The result is there, the JPG.
Yes I think that too, that the original DNG (read the #92 post in this topic!) wasn't exposed correctly, but a1ex could get some more information back with his algorithm, so I used the last processed one from him.
Less than 5k left to reach the funding goal! Let's get some extra perks :-)
with only 2K let to reach their goal and still 3 days left in the campaign, I believe they might just have enough to make the remote...
last 600.
I like the new clip: https://vimeo.com/107801527
Champagner ! ITS DONE !! CONGRATULATIONS !
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera#pledges
Yes! :-)
No champagner around here. I toast with some red wine.
Wait, that I would have done anyway the next minutes. I postpone my salute until 110.000 Euro are in!
And I want to thank all those supporting the project with smaller amounts (= not going for a 350 € perk) for their contributions!
Apertus: Ok guys, get to work!
Yeah, we're there! 8)
WOW :o ;D
Hurray! Thanks so much everyone!
We couldn't have done it without you!
And that's not just a saying, without the ML community we would have failed!
Fioritura,
The blacks are really crushed or is it just me?
Quote from: Fioritura on October 05, 2014, 09:36:33 PM
I like the new clip: https://vimeo.com/107801527
Have to watch on my good monitor. Coffee first :-)
They definitely should hire A1ex (and maybe not just A1ex but all core ML team) to get best looking picture out of this hardware. First of all he willing to do it himself. Next, ML community brings them a lot of supporters. Last, but not least - it's probably not to much people in open source with experience in this field.
Quote from: mothaibaphoto on October 06, 2014, 07:49:14 AM
They definitely should hire A1ex (and maybe not just A1ex but all core ML team) to get best looking picture out of this hardware. First of all he willing to do it himself. Next, ML community brings them a lot of supporters. Last, but not least - it's probably not to much people in open source with experience in this field.
Whilst a1ex and the other ML core developers are very talented at what they do (and also pull the best image possible from the canon hardware), it seems like you're under the impression that the axiom team is a bunch of monkeys in a basement :P (note: I have no problem if any of them want to identify as a monkey)
I'd have no objection to them hiring anybody that they like, however they too are professionals and possibly have a videophile/imagephile already on board, and if they didn't then I am unsure why they decided to build a camera if none of them have an interest in videography.
That's all great. The only downside I see is the image sensor size...
They all say that Super35 is film-industry standard, blah-blah... - Yes!...
BUT!
Industry is using Anamorphic optics with 2x anamorph coefficient. Making this Super35 TWICE as wide optically.
e.g. Cinemascope is 21.95mm wide, but after anamorph it "gets" - 43.9mm!
And that's even wider than 5dmk3.
Of course you can use $50K industry-standard anamorphic optics, but... why not just use RED or ALEXA then?
But if you can't afford true anamorph, and you're just low-budget DIY indie filmmaker - then you need a LARGE sensor with spherical optics, and crop it.
That's what I think... It needs to be going large!
But I hope it will.. In the next commercial release.
Hi Alex and Georg,
Very interesting project. I hope the Axiom guys know how lucky they are to get you both into the project.
And I'm just in time to grab a nice T-shirt.
I wish you all good luck and trust you get the best out of this more competitive camera.
@vicnaum
It´s the same for 5D,you can use anamorphic 2x lenses and duplicate the sensor size!
Yay, thanks everybody and congratulations to the Apertus team!
Quote from: surami
I pushed a1ex's "image02-fpnfix-hilite.DNG" in ACR and graded in AE + added some grain:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g7lfrm7ccc1g063/AADHVFTBhcOT9MpHwQBNCCwfa?dl=0
I like the result. You have used pretty strong denoising on chroma, right?
@vicnaum sorry, thats contradictory.
QuoteIndustry is using Anamorphic optics..
All of them? No. Most of them? No. Some of them? Yes. Only them, who can afford? Yes. And Yes, @budafilms said, use a 5DIII with anamorph its even wider than your "industries choice". (but it never changes the real resolution of a sensor)
Quote.. use RED or ALEXA then..
is there a built-in anamorph? and what uses red as sensor? do you think they re all on the newest dragon-sensor? Arri Alexa? 4:3 35mm sized sensor? where s the industry-choice?
QuoteIt needs to be going large!..
no.
seems like a outburst of emotions. ;)
@Sebastian i remember this design of modular blocks (http://images.slashcam.de/texte/1200-PIC2-Cam-Modules.jpg). is it still on your agenda? is this the gamma?
and bytheway: i often work with protected hdmi-plugs (on barco c5 ledwall fi) - it makes sense to use something like that (neutrik) (http://www.neutrik.com/en/multimedia/multimedia-connectors/hdmi/), hdmi is such a sensitive consumer graded port/connector.. (cablearmour (https://www.apertus.org/cablearmour) is a good idea as well, but not really weathersealed)
regards chmee
Quote from: chmee on October 06, 2014, 10:24:11 AM
@Sebastian i remember this design of modular blocks. is it still on your agenda? is this the gamma?
Yes that is on the roadmap for the AXIOM Gamma.
The AXIOM Beta will also be modular with swappable IO shields. But changing modules will be a bit less convenient here - not something you want to do on a daily basis. On the other hand you will not need different outputs every day anyway :)
Quote from: a1exI like the result. You have used pretty strong denoising on chroma, right?
Yes, here are the
ACR settings, I didn't touch the other tabs. I'm sure that similar settings in UFRaw can be done (I don't know that program), so we could get flat DNGs, but at first the best solution for FPN & pink/purple corrections have to be done somehow. As I see your & other ML developers' & Axiom team's knowledge it will be solved quite fast.
Another neat trick that can be done with a high-fps sensor, even if the final output has a low fps: temporal antialiasing filter.
Other companies did it in a different way, but the end result would be pretty similar:
http://tessive.com/time-control-faq/
http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/cinema-temporal-aliasing
and it was discussed here as well:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5074
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8555.msg82898#msg82898
I'm going to implement this in ML for timelapse, with these functions (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13408). It will probably drain the battery pretty fast (because the sensor will be capturing light all the time), but it should give a very nice motion blur. Didn't try, but the theory makes sense.
This is also possible in post, but not practical (you would have record at say 300 fps and transcode to 24).
Thanks for the links a1ex! I especially liked the second article.
"[...] a soft global shutter pushes the limits of what is possible with motion capture, and effectively overcomes many of the traditional trade-offs. Cinematographers ordinarily have to choose between using a lower shutter angle and achieving sharper stills, for example, or using a higher shutter angle and achieving smoother motion. A soft global shutter can achieve both simultaneously.
The end result is a more natural and robust representation of motion that makes the most of a given frame rate. Everything else being equal, panning and motion blur will therefore appear smoother. [...]" [http://bit.ly/1xW0BoV]
Wow! Amazing things to come :-)
Just followed up on the links to other ML-forums, and the Tessive dead-end. This is (another reason) why the open camera project will be a godsend! :-)
If backers keep it up like last hours Apertus may have to open 4th batch ...
Congratulations! Was looking dim 10 days ago!
Less than $1k for remote control, still possible 10k more for active EF mount. Keep your fingers crossed :)
It's not the question if EF mount goal is possible. If Apertus comes up with a 4th Super35 batch the run for battery goal is on. And beyond, maybe.
I'm absolute surprised about the fundings running in. We're at about 10k€/d = >400€/h
Gratulation, bin gespannt!
New rendering of the remote controller:
https://plus.google.com/+ApertusOrg/posts/PRjQfKAX9qM
Very nice, and a bit more compact.
Looks like the the remote and the active canon mounts will be funded . . .
€120,000 - Active Canon EF Mount
reached :)
Goals met :-)
Now time for some action.
Only 204 days left to release the 1st batch!
We will cheering you along and counting.
Battery goal not met ... yet
Battery is easy DIY project. Now storage solution other than expensive proprietary HDMI is main concern for me.
when in doubt, stick a RC car battery onto it :)
4th batch is there. Now let's see if Apertus will come up with an 140.000 Euro goal to make the finish a little bit more challenging.
Quote from: Canon eos m on October 07, 2014, 07:28:26 PM
Only 204 days left to release the 1st batch!
We will cheering you along and counting.
:P
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg130384#msg130384
Seeing how well the campaign did I assume they will reach about 170.000€. A new batch would do the trick.
Nobody interested in 43s Axiom
170.000 is very, very optimistic. The current trend says we will terminate around 136.000 to 140.000. If the backers keep their pace, of course.
Just seen there's a new batch of super35 for July. Those will all sell. Afterwards it can reach my optimistic guess.
Slightly late to the party, but whatever....
I saw the original launch of the fundraiser and was intrigued but though it'll just be an interesting technology project without a decent OS.
Saw on NFS today about ML coming on board.....
(http://reactionimage.org/img/gallery/1174804810.jpg)
This is now very cool, and I'm sure both Apertus and the ML gang will step up and produce a wonderful cambination!! (sod it, not fixing this typo - it works)
Batch 3 camera ordered and 30 euros in the pot for ML to get a camera!!
Update #21 (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera#activity): AXIOM Beta 4K RAW PC recording option
Spread the word!
Andy600, thanks so much for starting this thread and starting a snowball effect. a1ex, thanks for coming on board, I think that decision absolutely triggered a tipping point for the campaign and is one of the primary reasons that it went way past its goal already (now at 125,000 Euros, I keep checking the number every few hours out of sheer excitement).
I am more than stoked to see you incredibly talented developers support the AXIOM, and write cinema history as one big family.
Toby
History will be made if the project crosses Euro 175,000 in funding. 30 hours is a long time to sell all of the 4th batch and 5th ....
hello. im new around here, and not vastly experienced with forums..
im trying to get hold of a sample raw16 file (the axiom format), so I can create a transcoder, and HQ downsampling tool
the link on the wiki is not working, so if anyone has a sample and can get it to me (somehow), id very much appreciate it
my email is
[email protected]k.r
Quote from: ronx on October 08, 2014, 05:12:07 AM
the link on the wiki is not working, so if anyone has a sample and can get it to me (somehow), id very much appreciate it
Hi ronx, the link has been fixed.
I have mistakenly bought Super35 Beta voucher for $350. Happy to resell, please email me at mojaroslav at gmail.com
I stand corrected!
Sebastian, ready for a 5th?
Quote from: Walter Schulz on October 09, 2014, 04:13:57 AM
I stand corrected!
Sebastian, ready for a 5th?
Walter nice to see you turning believer :)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3947/15480719951_363d48c45b_z_d.jpg)
AXIOM Alpha 4K RAW Still Image 4K raw DNG Download processed by A1ex opened in ACR
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mothaibaphoto/15480719951/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mothaibaphoto/15480719951/)
Quote from: nikfreak on October 07, 2014, 09:00:12 PM
:P
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg130384#msg130384
Seeing how well the campaign did I assume they will reach about 170.000€. A new batch would do the trick.
Nobody interested in 43s Axiom
Almost there!
Option to change sensor of 43s batch is given officially in comments. So 2 hours left to join the party and break the 170k
Quote from: Canon eos m on October 09, 2014, 04:56:25 AM
Walter nice to see you turning believer :)
Nah! For instance I don't believe history will be changed if 175.000 are rolling in. Neither believing it would be if numbers 174.999 or 175.001.
100.000 has potential but only history will tell. With hindsight.
Quote from: nikfreak on October 09, 2014, 06:26:04 AM
Option to change sensor of 43s batch is given officially in comments. So 2 hours left to join the party and break the 170k
If this batch is going to hit big time (well beyond 170k) I might begin to believe people actually can read.
5th batch is in and running far better than 4/3.
10 minutes to go.
€174,520
I just wanted to let the Magic Lantern team know that without their backing I would have never seriously considered Apertus Axiom. But now I have bitten the bullet and am waiting for the exciting time ahead as we collectively watch it grow, so we can all get our hands on it to create some magic.
Quote from: Canon eos m on October 08, 2014, 02:39:37 AM
History will be made if the project crosses Euro 175,000 in funding. 30 hours is a long time to sell all of the 4th batch and 5th ....
My wish is granted ;)!
Hope you guys pull off everything planned and come up with a camera that everyone can use to produce fantastic results!
Final crowd funding amount: €174,520 EUR
Absolutely incredible, thanks so much everyone here.
I am officially stoked now :)
You can conclude two things:
1) Apertus is a mighty fine concept
2) A1ex an G3ggo getting involved seems to have triggered a massive response.
It may a bit übertrieben to say this but I hope it relieves some of the frustration the ML developers experienced in the recent GPL mess. Seeing how their involvement propels the interest in this project must be uplifting and stimulating.
I wish you all the best in developing the Beta. Make it work!
Look at this interesting project (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1623255426/fps1000-the-low-cost-high-frame-rate-camera)
No hassle with external recorders, writes on onboard flash memory. Nice toy.
i thought to pledge there as well, but, the examples are not sharp, the recording length is logically depending on cache, not storage-size - and finally how often do you need highspeed-recordings? it would be only a toy for once a year-usage.
I consider it's a toy, no doubts. Examples blurred horribly. But it has working prototype. Recording time is more than enough for it's application. And I'll be glad, if Axiom Beta can write even 55 sec on its own.
Nice to know that the 35mm sensor is the same one (allegedly (http://"http://www.4kshooters.net/2014/06/14/the-new-blackmagic-design-4k-ursa-a-dark-knight-horse-or/")) used in Blackmagic's Production Camera and URSA. So we already have somewhat of a reference about it's capabilities.
For those who missed to contribute:
"The official campaign has ended successfully, but we will keep the campaign open for latecomers to claim your AXIOM Beta for a € 500 development contribution for another two weeks (until October 23rd).
Pay 500€ now for development and est. € 2.300 due at Ship of AXIOM Beta Super35 (using CMV12000 image sensor) 5th Batch - Limited time offer!"
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera
Looks like no amount limit on the last batch! Maybe another 50k to grab?? 8)
Sebastian: seeing how many orders you now have, does this mean you will have better means for machining high quality parts? I expect a lot of people are expecting something much sturdier than a project box. So plastic would probably disappoint a lot of people. Let other companies do that... Please make it strong and try to get cable protection in the basic design. That's one of the things that freak my out when shooting with a dslr now, if you don't want to add another bulky cage.
By being so successful the pressure only gets higher... You could consider making it modular from the beginning.
Just a thought.
Quote from: KurtAugust on October 10, 2014, 08:01:40 PM
Sebastian: seeing how many orders you now have, does this mean you will have better means for machining high quality parts? I expect a lot of people are expecting something much sturdier than a project box. So plastic would probably disappoint a lot of people. Let other companies do that... Please make it strong and try to get cable protection in the basic design. That's one of the things that freak my out when shooting with a dslr now, if you don't want to add another bulky cage.
By being so successful the pressure only gets higher... You could consider making it modular from the beginning.
Just a thought.
I am starting to investigate CNC milling the enclosure as aluminum but nothing set in stone yet, we will evaluate several options.
Cable protection would indeed be nice to have but I do not consider it an essential vital camera feature.
Sebastian,
CNC Milling sounds good!
Protecting the electronic boards and it outputs is certainly not essential, but it sure is nice. Perhaps just provide threaded holes so people can easily create custom attachments.
I know, I know, everybody is yelling you their ideas. Just pick the ones that work.
Hi Sebastian,
> Cable protection would indeed be nice to have but I do not consider it an essential vital camera feature.
I say this is partly true for cameras _with_ built in displays and recorders. With the AXIOM Beta it is essential. Lose the connect and you don't record anymore. Not good! I mostly do live recordings, so for me it is even more of an issue. No possibility of a retake, and I might lose that client as well. Potentially damaging the socket is also an issue, but at least the AXIOM Beta's got three of those ;-)
Regards,
Andrew
Sebastian,
I realize the focus is much more on the electronics right now and it's a joy to follow the irc logs.
But on a practical shooting level, I wonder where backers would like to see the focus on the box the parts goes into:
-A cheaper body to get the job done pretty well in a lab context. For developers. so non-crucial filming only. See the comment above (so really a beta or prototype camera)
-More expensive body that can also withstand real life situations. It can get pretty hectic out there and you'd like it if the camera can take a hit. (So already a production camera on a hardware level)
Two things that annoy me quite often:
1) a lot of camera bodies only have one threaded hole in the bottom. One you attach a follow focus, it quite often becomes very difficult to get this to be rock solid. Having more holes for a 15mm bars attachment would solve this.
2) Outputs directly on main electronic board. It really doesn't take much of an impact to have a dead headphone output. For example. Too often, protruding elements are only thought of when designing the body itself, while the cable that goes in it should be considered part of the system. Some camera manufactures even go so far as touting mini-jack plugs as "professional connections" and move it forward as a design feature (yes, I'm referring to Blackmagic design).
In general, you buy a camera and then you buy a cage.
Personally, I am really fed up with this. But apparently it makes economic sense to sell cheap stuff that is horrible to use and you need to spend more cash on add-ons than the camera itself. Especially if they are not universal and only fit that specific model.
Wouldn't be possible to have the Beta built as a cage directly? With a lot of mounting points built in? For monitor arm, 15mm bars, heavy duty base plates etc.
When holding the Aja Cion at IBC lately, I really liked how they managed to make it feel like a camera. It was really well balanced because it's so low and didn't feel like plastic. No other camera in the sub 10k € comes close. Not even the Sony FS7, which despite the ergonomics still has the touch of a prosumer camera to me.
I'm not asking to go Monster Bomb Ape Shit Tank Army Stuff design either. Just something solid that we can build upon.
How do others think about this?
About 90% of the shootings I do are somewhere out in the wild, may it be a National Park in Norway or somwhere in the Alps. Therefore size and sturdiness matters a lot. It's no fun to walk with a backpacker of 25kg weight up to a summit just to know, that if it is drizzling you are out for nothing.
Same is for a quick shooting in a city like Venice, where you have to walk all the way. Sometimes I feel like one of those guys in Halo packed with gear.
Regards,
Kontrakatze
@KurtAugust
> Wouldn't be possible to have the Beta built as a cage directly? With a lot of mounting points built in?
+1 :-)
I like the idea of offering two enclosure options:
-) the cheap box for people who don't care about the enclosure and use the Beta in a lab or just for development/testing
-) the more sophisticated and more expensive cage/camera outdoor shooting enclosure
One general thing we need to be careful though ( and which is also the reason why we didn't make the enclosure in the AXIOM Beta campaign look super sophisticated) is that after all the AXIOM Beta IS a developer kit / prototype so we do not want to "trick" people into believing anything else by dressing the camera up in the body of an ALEXA simply speaking :)
I think a lot is possible for the outdoor enclosure and I am very happy that the first step of collecting ideas/requirements has already started. Maybe we can together collect all the essentials on our wiki: https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Body_Design_Options and we will soon be ready to create 3D concept models that take these suggestions/wishes/ideas into account where possible and then iterate on these designs until we are all happy.
@Sebastian
About cage, you should take a look Asus Motherboards (called Saberthoot) have the original PCB and a second armor to protect the components.
Two options - strong vs light - it´s not satisfactory. But buying the cheaper you have the possibility after to add a kind of armor and protect from water, rain, or add accessories.
Take a look: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/SABERTOOTH_Z77/
@Sebastian
QuoteOne general thing we need to be careful though ( and which is also the reason why we didn't make the enclosure in the AXIOM Beta campaign look super sophisticated) is that after all the AXIOM Beta IS a developer kit / prototype so we do not want to "trick" people into believing anything else by dressing the camera up in the body of an ALEXA simply speaking
This is a good statement but please don't forget that the Axiom BETA project was backed by most of the 750 users with the expectation of eventually buying a working camera, even if one with highly experimental features and needing an external recorder. If we look at the big headlines of the campaign, they are stating that the Axiom is "A professional digital image capturing platform, for film-makers, by film-makers". I don't think that many of the 750 backers (I'm one of them) are both film-makers and developers. Many were enticed by the new open source image capturing platform and the modularity, all backed by ML and Bloom, and surely there are not many A1exes (if any at all, other than a1ex) among them. I think that if it was for many of the 750 backers to actually buy the BETA, it would already need to be half of what the GAMMA promises to be. It is just my feeling that the expectations are higher than just to have a box with a sensor to tinker with from the comfort of our homes. And I also think that the interest should be high to eventually have real orders for those BETAs, so that the sensor can be ordered with a bulk discount from CMOSIS, right?
In case the non-developers will be less interested in ordering the BETA, would they be able to keep and use their discount vouchers for the GAMMA?
Quote from: Sebastian on October 13, 2014, 10:53:15 PM
the AXIOM Beta IS a developer kit / prototype so we do not want to "trick" people into believing anything else
Strange, because while collecting money you stated: Meet AXIOM Beta. Professional Digital Cinema Hardware.
Oh, well, let's hope that backers got the difference and it's not a spectacular... misunderstanding.
Quote from: Sebastian on October 13, 2014, 10:53:15 PM
-) the cheap box for people who don't care about the enclosure and use the Beta in a lab or just for development/testing
Spend thousands of Euros on Beta and on additional professional equipment just to make it work and then keep it in a lab for testing? If you say so...
Quote from: Sebastian on October 13, 2014, 10:53:15 PM
-) the more sophisticated and more expensive cage/camera outdoor shooting enclosure
:D
AXIOM Beta: Professional Digital Cinema Hardware - for shooting outdoors pay extra.
Which option is planned for backers for their "developer kit/prototype", by the way?
Sorry, guys, but it somehow sounds like an expensive joke.
please dont rush into discsussion of this kind.
they are still finalizing the design that was shown on the pages.
any option is possible, from dev's view (open housings) up to rack-mountable with two screws.
reminding you of the mission statement:
QuoteThe plan is to democratize camera technology and put the power back into the hands of the users. .. Your ideas and experiences will help us advance AXIOM in the future. The crowd funding backers community will play an active role in deciding where the AXIOM development is heading. ..
and
Quote.. so we want to make sure that you know exactly what you are going to receive. Actually, we want to make sure that you are aware of what you are getting yourself into right from the beginning! The AXIOM Beta is a BETA product (which can clearly be deduced from its name). There will be bugs and other issues for sure, but we are confident that with your help, your experience and last but not least your input, we will hunt down every single one of them and turn it into a feature. .. As always, there is the small possibility that the AXIOM Beta will actually work flawlessly from day one. However, there is also no guarantee that it won't fail miserably at the beginning.
its up to you, magically transforming your sarcasm/pessimism into
positive critique and kind of community-driven energy.
In my humble opinion, when it comes to discussion about details of a "Professional Digital Cinema" camera for film makers and not scientists
after it has been funded, one can propose various button shapes or layout, menu structure options, interface variations or body colors, but thinking IF it might have casing allowing it to be taken outdoor (which demo shots clearly imply) is simply ridiculous.
Quote from: chmee on October 15, 2014, 09:28:24 AM
its up to you, magically transforming your sarcasm/pessimism into positive critique and kind of community-driven energy.
I would be pessimist if I started talking about future, that it's not going to work, there will be delays etc. But I don't. I don't have to worry about it. But I think that discussing most basic construction principles of something that's supposed to be a
professional film making device and not a developer toy, is a joke. And I suppose that most of the backers imagined to have ability to take the camera out, not just keep it open on the desk and connected to computer to play with codes and switches.
Philip B. backed it to enjoy open source coding freedom? Sure.
That's how I see it. To let "community-driven energy" flow, I promise not to write any more sarcastic/pessimist comments regarding AXIOM Beta ;D
Now you have the chance to be a part of defining how/what you want instead of complaining about what you not want.
The wiki is still waiting for input :)
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Body_Design_Options
Wouldn't it be nice to set up a separate forum to discuss things like that? Proposals could be discussed and voted for. And it would be more easy to follow the discussions in a transperant way. The Wiki is nice, but should be reserved for finalized ideas.
agree. a subforum for axiom dev?
QuoteThe Wiki is nice, but should be reserved for finalized ideas.
agree as well. in the wiki should stay actual decisions/positions of development, so anyone can read, whats the status quo - with links to the discussions.
makes no sense to me. There's an Axiom forum available at their site:
https://www.apertus.org/forum/
Why create one here? probably linking to it just like linking to bitbucket is the way to go.
We do have our own forum but for some reason it was never really accepted as communication platform by our community...
We are currently testing a feature/bug/wishlist/task tracker system for this purpose: http://lab.apertus.org/
You are welcome to help test/fill the lab with ideas/wishes :)
Hey Sebastian, since this camera is practically a modular computer (sorta), using basically the same sensor the blackmagic guys are using, I think it would be wise to install a closed circuit liquid cooling for the hot components. When running a cpu/chip at full force, heat will be an issue. The blackmagic 4k has heat issues when on for a while, which then changes the image being taken.
Liquid cooling is cheap in general, im sure some or most owners wont mind forking out $100 or so to get a closed liquid cooling system in their hardware to handle future hardware workloads which may be pushed by magic lantern when the chips are stressing.
@Sebastian: I think your forum is actually a more general one. For example, the hardware section appears to be about hardware in general, which does not help in this case. And in addition you have three things, the general forum, the wiki and the bugtracker/proposal list, which are all seperate and it is not very easy to get an overview, or just find the looked for information. Another example, the information about the different lens mounts can not easily accessed from the main wiki page, or at least I didn't find that link. Different accounts for each system doesn't help eather.
I think that needs to be more structured
@Vegeta:
As far as I understood until now from the discussions on the forum, a feature like the one you requested, which would also future-proof the BETA, is only planned for the GAMMA. I would also love the BETA to be like an unrefined prototype of the GAMMA, but as far as I understand, the body of the GAMMA will be totally different. Only the GAMMA will have a true modularity (like what you probably saw in the pictures on the apertus website) and what additional accesories you buy for the BETA will not really work anymore, besides probably the active lens mount and surely the sensor. So a feature like water cooling looks like way out of scope, though I would totally love it.
I just read the Canon C100 mark II spec. No raw, no ProRes. No 2k, no 4k. No slow-motion. Price - 5500usd. Release at the end of 2014.
So I think Axiom still have chance guys.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mox-file-format
What do you all think. Is it worth supporting?
We have MLV... I think somebody already posted this:
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png)
Well, I certainly don't think Apertus will mind if some writes code or builds a complete recorder with the MOX format. However, in this stage of development, combining two projects in progress makes things only overly complicated, no? If something doesn't work is it the problem of the camera or the codec? I think they better stick with the current setup for now. MLV exists, MOX not yet... And the ML team is already doing work on the project.
The MOX project is interesting, but I don't see how I can build a workflow around it for now. I wouldn't mind having a completely open source ecosystem and would like to succeed him very much.
Agree Kitor and Kurt.
I actually didn't mean that the Apertus folks should adopt this standard.
My question was more about whether the technical folks see and merit in the MOX project enough to support.
I may put a few dollars in for the cause :)
Hi, guys; new to the forum here. Awesome work you guys have done; congratulations and thank you!
@a1ex
@sebastian
http://nofilmschool.com/2014/11/new-sony-sensor-may-offer-21-stops-dynamic-range-5120-base-iso
Friend said that Sony sensor is not possible, or must use trickery of some kind. Not enough photons, he thinks
Your friend is correct.
To get 21.282 stops of DR, one has to get at least 2550000 photons per pixel (assuming zero read noise and 100% QE). The sensor is rumoured to be micro 4/3, and Olympus E-M1 (another micro 4/3 camera) has about 16000 electrons per pixel at ISO 122, at QE=48%, so about 33333 photons (source (http://www.sensorgen.info/OlympusOM-D-E-M1.html)). The rumored sensor has larger pixels - 4.6x larger (2160px on Sony vs 4640 on Oly). Which means, on a m43 sensor, at 2160px horizontal resolution, you can only get 21 stops of DR at ISOs lower than 7.3.
At ISO 5120, on a m43 sensor, at 2160px horizontally, you can only capture 3652 photons. Which means you can't get more than 11.8 stops of dynamic range - and you can only reach this number with zero read noise and with 100% QE.
That graph is totally bogus, and the rumor is just a bad joke.
Bad jokes are not cool...
Ok, one more for the people ;)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/news/just-announced-sony-a7-mark-ii-mirrorless-camera?cm_mmc=EML-_-Holiday2014-03-_-141120-_-Body_Explora_SonyA7II-ReadMoreBttn
I would have some important questions about the Axiom.
First, the VAT issue.
"Is the VAT included in the price? I think that the Austrian VAT will be applied to to the camera.
Then buyers of the different EU countries will have to pay the difference with the VAT of their own countries.
Will buyers outside to the EU pay for a double taxation? In my country at least for private cityzien there is a double taxation, for professionals it works differently.
Then the question of the price!
In order to have a camera you have to buy the body and at least the battery pack and a third party EVF , then maybe at a later time you can buy the wifi controller and the adapter and Canon.
The total is 2300€ + battery pack, Canon adapter, wifi controller, and + an EVF, for a camera that records internally FullHD 50 Mbts.
For those who are my needs, I am torn between the AXIOM and a Sony A7s. I can find the Sony A7s at 1870 € VAT included, and Sony has an EVF adjustable, and is more ergonomic to take pictures.
Both cameras record internally FullHD 50 mbts, we would see in the future if the frame rate of the Axiom will be equivalent to that of the Sony A7s when internaly recording.
Perhaps the Dynamic range will be about equivalent. Sony is 14.1, Axiom I think 15. Sony is 8bit only.
To register in 4k both cameras need an external recorder as the Shogun. The AXIOM will have a proprietary functionality to record Raw sequences, when connected to a desktop PC.
I am not an expert, but the only difference I can see is that with the AXIOM you will be able to record up to 120 FPS at fullHD with the Shogun.
Maybe Up to 175 (8bit), 150 (10bit), 75 (12bit) FPS at Full Resolution with a different recorder.
I think that recording at elevates FPS is an incoming cameras features that will be soon abused in all the future video production
as the DSRL shallow focus in the past. But I don't know if I will need to use it so often.
What other functionality has the Axiom to justify the price difference?
I understand that a beta camera will have ergonomic limitations, such as no hardware controls. Since we can not use sensors, hardware components or codecs not open source or that require royalties payment.
On the other side we will have no limitations on the firmware development. At least in theory.
Also that as nofilmschools guys says:
"The most interesting aspect of the Apertus cameras is that they have the potential to be the last camera you will ever need due to the fact that they're infinitely upgradeable, which means that they won't
eventually become technologically obsolete like most of the cameras on the market will."
But it is as asking if it is more cheap or advantageous to continuously upgrade the engine and other parts of my car or to sell it and buy a complety new one every few years. In the second case I could have
a new ergonomic car body too (for that it worth).
I mainly would buy the beta Axiom with the expectation of having higher specification at a advantageous price, paying for some limitations.
It is how to use an early version of Blender, free with good modelling features, but with some rendering limitations. And with a weird GUI. So that it could be a good product for small productions, but not
for large kolossals.
I understand that producing a beta camera in limited quantities may be more expensive then producing one in large quantities with an improved production process.
I also understand that the beginning development costs are higher then later when you will only have to add functionalities.
But from my point of view of end user the price seems a bit high. At least for my needs.
I understand that I have to wait for and to do the math by myself, but it would help me to hear other opinions, for a better comparision.
I would like to find in some blog a continuosly updated comparison between the Axiom and other commercial pro cameras,
just to see how the real development will follow and maybe go over other cameras. And to understand which features compared to other cameras I can get and which not.
I hope that Google had adequately translated my thoughts.
TKS VM
PS: I try to express myself better:
The Axiom wins when connected to a shogun or other external recorder.
But what has the Axiom basic kit than the Sony A7s?
Before we go into details:
You opted for a 300€ perk during the crowdsourcing campaign and spent 300€ (or more)? If not:Your retail price for the body will not be 2300€. At time of the campaign the est. retail price was around 6000€.
And as a general rule: If you even consider to go with A7s I might suggest you do not want to wait for Axiom Beta.
More details if you are a 300+ contributor.
I opted for the 350€ perk . I don't need imediatly all the advanced features.
My reasoning is if I purchase the Axiom without the shogun,
is like buying a A7s with some limitation of codec or ergonomics?
Because I could get all the other benefits only after I will buy a Shogun.
So it is just to keep this possibility that justifies the price difference.
[And of course: the potential to be the last camera you will ever need due to the fact that they're infinitely upgradeable]
If all the aditional gears are not included in the 2300€ price;
the difference could be about 1000/1500 € or more? It depends on EVF quality too.
[And yes, I have to add the 350€ perk amount too]
Quote from: Ellero on December 12, 2014, 02:02:54 PM
[And of course: the potential to be the last camera you will ever need due to the fact that they're infinitely upgradeable]
Maybe I'm wrong but this statement looks like being addressed to Axiom Gamma, not Beta.
And don't expect "last camera you ever need" means you won't have to put gear into sales ever again and/or don't have to bolster up your private museum of outdated gear if you want to stay up-to-date. It just means if you want to replace one module you don't have to replace all of them.
Sebastian, correct me if I'm wrong.
yes but I expect the parts to be replaced, are minimal.
Or that I can replace some cards by my self or with the help of a geek friend, as extreme solution.
I am refering to the beta will buy. I understand that I can not get a full upgrade to the gamma.
But I expect to keep the possibility to hack it a long time and add external modules on the camera rig.
If I have to throw away the beta when it comes out the gamma,
I already have the answer to my questions.
[Edit]
I would compare the beta to a desktop PC.
The sensor is like the CPU, the board Raspberry Pi as the MB, the card Axiom as the GPU.
The firmware is the bios or the SO.
Then you can update until you have to change the socket.
But I'd like it would be possible in the future to change the graphics card of the Axiom, and push the sensor to a higher fps, without having to throw away the beta and having to buy the gamma, or change the sensor too.
Unless the Apertus guys would change the socket every odd day as Intel does.
(I don't know if sensors have all the same socket, or if it is possible to use an adapter or so on)
Commercial cameras as like the Mac, you can change nothing, and you have to send your Mac to Apple laboratories in order to upgrade the Ram
the revolution is near :)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6WTrVVIEAAXCNm.jpg)
hello there^^ nice to meet you
i am just like a baby about ML
i think that it is a like a revolution of dslr
and i am korean
in korea it is gonna be awsome!!
and help me bro and sis
I came late to the party, but good to see some truly open-source camera. Good job!
Hi , i have purchased a "voucher" for the of the AXIOM Beta Super35. But due to economic dificulties i would like to sell my "voucher". If someone is interested plesase contact.
whats the deal with the voucher?
thx. sw
Quote from: swinxx on March 25, 2015, 10:14:20 PM
whats the deal with the voucher?
thx. sw
This: https://www.apertus.org/axiom-beta-after-campaign-end-article-2014
But: https://www.apertus.org/en/faq#Can_I_sellgive_my_voucher_to_a_friend_
when the crowdfunding was running you could purchase the option (to buy the beta model for 2300euros) for 350euros. I have contacted with the team and there is no problem in transfering my "option".
who of you :) played with the axiom-data :)
https://apertus.org/axiom-beta-hello-world-article-may-2015
I DID! :D
Only joking, i wish i had the knowledge! :)
Phase 1 just started.
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-beta-hardware-complete-first-moving-images-team-talk-8-article-december-2015
regards chmee
Aren't they way behind on schedule?
I thought the first betas were supposed to be released Q1/2 of this year?
Quote from: Kharak on December 04, 2015, 11:21:48 AM
Aren't they way behind on schedule?
I don't know exactly how much, but yes they are. To be fair some delays were expected and they added extra functionality/flexibility in the hardware.
First sequences from the prototype with finalized hardware are up (minus full bandwidth sensor board with fpga). You can see them in the latest update video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izDzFov3nDM&feature=youtu.be
You can also download one clip as a 4096x1080 12bit DNG sequence: http://files.apertus.org/AXIOM-Beta/coffee_4K_raw_highspeed_burst.zip
My layman's impression (ignoring some of the artifacts that will be addressed) is the image detail is great, though that might be expected from 12bit raw in a studio, However the FPN ruins the experience (its not yet corrected). The footage can be pushed quite a bit. I found a few looks I liked with it.
My question for @a1ex , Sebastian or anyone else who knows their shit is: How much of the FPN can usually be corrected? Is the betas implementation likely to offer the same noise performance as BMPC or AJA cion, where FPN rears its ugly head at iso800 and above, or can this be improved upon? Also does the original assessment of DR hold true with the new footage.
Back when I purchased my voucher I was hoping this would be an alternative to other high fps cams I could never afford, and as a huge fan of Ptools and ML it seemed like a natural fit. Since, my work has evolved in the year+ since the campaign and I now have a FS700, another $2k for just a fun project seems excessive. Given the footage from the BMPC and Cion its hard to see the Beta w/ cmv1200 touch the FS700 in sensitivity and DR (or even really match it). Plus in its current form you can't record from it without a pc.
I would like to see internal rec to SD, or an output that works with available external recorders. I would like to see the full sensor readout with a usable duration: 5-10sec.
I really wan't this cam to work out, and put more control in my hands then I've ever had before. I would like to continue to support the Axiom team, I think its great what they are doing and have eagerly awaited each update. However I can't justify spending that kind of money unless I can get great images from it and have started to worry that the camera might not be for me.
Quote from: LightCtrl on December 04, 2015, 05:30:41 PM
My question for @a1ex , Sebastian or anyone else who knows their shit is: How much of the FPN can usually be corrected?
A while ago I've tweaked a few DNGs, and you can find the result at the bottom of this page: https://apertus.org/axiom-beta-hello-world-article-may-2015
Here's a more recent sample (DNG available on request), where I tried to find a color matrix. Left is uncorrected, right is corrected. There are some tearing artifacts that you can safely ignore.
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/color-calibration/CC3-apertus.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/color-calibration/CC3-apertus-fpnfix.jpg)
How much of this will be fixable in real-time and how much will be postprocessing... we'll see. I haven't really started working on it, but it will probably happen soon.
Quote
Is the betas implementation likely to offer the same noise performance as BMPC or AJA cion, where FPN rears its ugly head at iso800 and above, or can this be improved upon?
I haven't seen samples from these cameras yet, so if you have some DNG files, I can take a look (and maybe even use them as test data for my algorithm, if the noise profile is similar).
QuoteAlso does the original assessment of DR hold true with the new footage.
The latest test clips were taken with crushed blacks (wrong sensor configuration), so unfortunately I couldn't recover anything from the shadows. Hopefully the next samples will match my measurements.
A1ex, thanks for your answers.
I must have missed your tweaked DNG's the first time around. Much improved, and way better then what I got myself.
Here is a link to BMPC footage. Hope it helps. While significantly better then anything we've seen from the beta its still seems pretty noisy. I suppose that sort low backlit scene would be pretty noisy with a fair number of cameras.
https://mega.nz/#!FJpBzRZK!7gcUhMcmivnpsgIisyO_-oPufMYSVYzw13OBykd1Cec
Bm rates the 4k production camera at 12 stops usable is probably around 8, which is gh2 territory. Hopefully the beta can do better. It will have different processing, and maybe some of the magic sauce A1ex mentioned in the beginning of this thread works and it can at least get up to canon level.
Do you mind extracting a few DNG frames for me? I'm on a very slow network connection.
no problem,
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0ByDzUJpFXhFjTjhwV1hPVjFYaFk&usp=sharing
I don't see any pattern noise on the first DNG (and I assume the others are from the same movie). Am I missing something?
No I don't think you are. I didn't realize you were looking for shots with FPN specifically. I just see some nasty looking color noise in the dark shadows (waves and rocks).
Here are some DNG's that defiantly have FPN. Their from the Ursa mini but the 4k version that by all accounts has the cmv12000 chip.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0ByDzUJpFXhFjS0RTZ2F0eUhtcFE&usp=sharing
According to Twitter the Axiom team has made some progress with image processing already.
https://twitter.com/ApertusOSCinema/status/674172374376390656/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
No samples available yet. I am highly interested in the results.
These were exactly what I was looking for, thanks. I have finally managed to fix those without introducing severe artifacts, and here are the corrected files:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/izyk4mn29429do9/AABDPunduQWSntQKJTiDFlbxa?dl=0
Here's a half-res jpeg, before and after:
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/fpn-fix/FPN_3-0.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/fpn-fix/FPN_3-fp.jpg)
And a 100% crop from a full-res jpeg (rendered with RawTherapee):
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/fpn-fix/FPN_4-crop.jpg)
You will still have to use green equilibration or the VNG4 algorithm in your raw processing software (I didn't correct this artifact yet).
The algorithm still gets confused in some cases (e.g. with strong horizontal or vertical edges in the image), but I'd say it's pretty usable. It will probably be helpful on Canons as well, since some models suffer from FPN at certain ISOs.
Source code: patternnoise.c (https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/misc-tools-utilities/blob/master/raw2dng/patternnoise.c)
Anyone interested in a FPN correction tool for any other camera? (be it Canon, BlackMagic or whatever else, as long as dcraw opens its raw files)
Yes!!!! 5d3 CR2s or MLV/RAW pretty please! This looks great to me!
Looks really great.
CANON 5d3 please RAW & MLV , thanks!!!
What do you guys mean about the 5D3?
A1ex made the Vertical Stipe fix a loooong time ago.
@A1ex, amazing work.. You are the Savior of Cameras.
FPN and "Vertical Stripes" are two very different issues.
If I have time, I may implement it in MLVFS. Shouldn't be too difficult.
I was under the assumption that the Vertical Stripes are there because of the Fixed Pattern Noise from the sensor.
What are the vertical stripes then?
Introduction:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-noise.htm
Or better, http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/#patternnoise
The pattern noise we are seeing in the above images is not exactly fixed (it varies from frame to frame), and it's a scalar offset applied to each row, and then the same process is repeated for each column. So, to correct a 4096x3072 image, you will need 7168 scalars. In the Apertus sensor, I believe things are a little more complex than that (the offset seems to be dependent on image brightness, but I didn't find a clear relationship yet, and the constant offset model already gives pretty good results).
In 5D3, vertical stripes appear because each column ( modulo 8 ) has a different gain, so the artifact is visible only in highlights. That is, columns 1, 9, 17 and so on have one gain, columns 2, 10, 18 ... have some other gain, so in order to correct this artifact, one has to compute 8 gains (scalars). I believe this happens because the sensor is read out using 8 different circuits in parallel, each with slightly different electrical parameters.
Other cameras: I believe 6D and 700D use 4 circuits, 60D/600D/550D/5D2/50D use 2 circuits, and 500D uses only one circuit. I came to this conclusion by checking the values of the sensor resolution registers (https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/commits/7333869fa0d9eb6cab9dc6cfd0348e3ef90a5e3d) (vertical resolution is always unscaled, while horizontal resolution is divided by 8, 4, 2 or 1, depending on the camera). Of course, this parallel readout affects the pattern noise as well (for example, on 60D, if you take the uncorrected*) pattern noise from even columns, and then the one from odd columns, you get two independent random walks).
*) To completely disable Canon's pattern noise correction, one has to replace all the W+H offsets with 0 (they are passed via EDMAC to the HivShd module).
Hot pixels are another story, and they are usually easy to find and fix.
Thanks a lot for explaining A1ex.
Understanding every element of my preferred cameras' makes me a better Video/cinematographer. In knowing why and what is causing these things, I feel that the way I capture my images is on a much more intricate level, from Planing to motive to subject to framing to lens to sensor to internals to data to transfer to Processing to Post Processing to Cutting to a finished product. Basically, I like knowing why!
Quote from: dmilligan on December 29, 2015, 05:58:55 PM
If I have time, I may implement it in MLVFS. Shouldn't be too difficult.
Done (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13152.msg159639#msg159639)
Was this update also implemented in PC version of MLVFS?
Quote from: kgv5 on January 04, 2016, 03:32:24 PM
Was this update also implemented in PC version of MLVFS?
If you compile the DLL I guess it is.
Does that work ok anymore?
Quote from: Licaon_Kter on January 04, 2016, 03:45:23 PM
If you compile the DLL I guess it is.
Does that work ok anymore?
No. The PFMAP code has not been updated in a very long time and is certainly broken by now.
Quote from: a1ex on December 14, 2015, 08:55:39 PM
Anyone interested in a FPN correction tool for any other camera? (be it Canon, BlackMagic or whatever else, as long as dcraw opens its raw files)
Yes, please! Here's the link to the noisy .dng files from Blackmagic Production Camera 4K. Thank you!
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2KgeL11wjTZZlNTTDRYQjJTdnM&usp=sharing
Since it just some days left to deadline for 1k. Euro payment, I want to ask some advice: does it worth for me to go further?
Starting points:
a) I can't afford just a toy. As independent self-investing producer I have no budget for experimenting.
b) I need a real step up over MKIII i have: 4k, Slow Mo, Autofocus. Yes, and all these are pretty useless without RAW, as a lot of cameras already in the market with such specs and I don't want to loose that quality advances.
So, what is the chances ???
I think the following is correct, but anyone correct me if I'm wrong:
The deadline is to lock in a particular price (hopefully a low one thanks to volume discount) for one stage of the production of the camera.
Even if you don't make the payment, if you are a voucher holder you will still be able to buy the camera "at cost." It's just that "at cost" might be higher for you at a later date with no high-volume price break on components.
So you buy your ticket and you take your chances, as the saying goes.
Quote from: Frank7D on February 02, 2016, 04:39:15 PM
The deadline is to lock in a particular price (hopefully a low one thanks to volume discount) for one stage of the production of the camera.
Even if you don't make the payment, if you are a voucher holder you will still be able to buy the camera "at cost." It's just that "at cost" might be higher for you at a later date with no high-volume price break on components.
So you buy your ticket and you take your chances, as the saying goes.
That is correct!
With Phase 1 we are trying to collect enough funds for securing good volume deals for components like the image sensor which in the end makes the AXIOM Beta cheaper for everyone participating in Phase 1.
If you do not participate in Phase 1 now you will still be able to get a camera at-cost later on. But with a worse volume deal so your camera will be more expensive. How much it will cost exactly though is hard to predict as it will depend on when we will order more components and what the volume then will be. Image sensor single unit is around 1300€ without taxes, in the volume deal we get it around 40% cheaper.
So in summary you will never again be able to get an AXIOM Beta for a price as low as now :)
But in the end, it will be a beta not a production camera. Nothing that I can work with in the field. That's why although I still have a voucher, it is a no go for me. But I think the misunderstanding was on my side, so I back out without any bad feelings.
Magic Lantern itself is also "always beta" and people can manage to use it on a daily basis ;)
FYI, I'll be meeting the Apertus team in Vienna in about 2 weeks; they promised me one of the first early betas.
I'm not going to promise it will be better than a 5D3 from the first iteration. But in 1-2 years... who knows :P
Probably same as mothaibaphoto I participated crowdfunding and supported Axiom with 350 €.
While the idea is so great, implementation is little slow so I decided not to move forward with phase 1 as of yet.
Will see how it is progresses. Meanwhile I switched from my lovely 5DIII to Sony A7sII which has greal low light, 4K p30 internal and FullHD p120 but of course I'm missing RAW.
Best Regards,
Andrey
Great, A1ex finally got it !!! Congrats! This camera is very close to, but not yet what I need: compact, with ultimate possibilities, and without any compromise on image quality, able to shoot, lets say, 500 frames in burst and I agree to wait while it dumps. It's very interesting, what features will finally get this camera.
Can't believe I left Vienna today!!!! And the Master himself, A1ex, is there!
Had I known.. Could have stayed for another 2 days if I wanted
Would love to meet A1ex and shake his hand, I would never wash it again :)
Hi Alex,
Were you able to look at FPN on blackmagic 4k files I submitted over a month ago on this post?
This post? (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11787.msg158766#msg158766)
Yes, last one on that page. I posted noisy Blackmagic 4k dngs hoping for a fix.
Hi Alex,
Did you have any chance to look at my 4k BMPC dngs?
thanks,
Quote from: jtvision on February 20, 2016, 06:38:00 PM
Yes, last one on that page. I posted noisy Blackmagic 4k dngs hoping for a fix.
.... Are you blind?
Sorry, don't know what you mean. I dont see any tools for correcting bmpc4k dngs on that page. Or am I missing smth?
This was tweeted asking if anyone interested to have a tool to fix FPNs. And now being ignored. :-[
Sorry, did I promise any release date for the tool?
on-topic: I've looked at the files a while ago, but the existing code didn't work on them out of the box, so it may take a while.
Cool, Alex! Thank you for taking time to look at bmpc 4k dngs. No worries and no pressure! Take your time. Its just comments of others made me think that I was missing something.
FYI: Black magic cameras have preferred temperatures to work. FPN appears only if camera is not warmed up enough or if it got too hot after long hours of being on.
That's a good hint. Are your sample files taken at temperatures outside the preferred range? Didn't find anything relevant in exif.
If so, I think you should be able to fix them by averaging a few seconds of dark frames (a clip with lens cap on) at roughly the same temperature as the clips. Then, use that average as a dark frame in your raw processing software.
For the sensor used by Apertus, my plan is to have a set of calibration files that also covers extreme temperatures, but I didn't put the camera in the freezer and oven yet :P
Yes they were shot outside prefered range, after about an hour of continuous shooting.
Thanks for the hint I'll try that. Any noise correction tool you would recommend?
Here's a cool trick I've tried to implement a while ago on 5D3, without success, but was very easy to do on the Axiom Beta: compressed 4K RAW video over HDMI, with... an external 1080p recorder that doesn't support raw video natively.
This particular implementation maps 12-bit 4K UHD RAW (3840x2160) at 30 fps to 8-bit 422 1080p at 60 fps, on Atomos Shogun.
http://www.apertus.org/axiom-beta-uhd-raw-mode-explained-article-may-2016
(https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/reschart-frame00001-recovered-uhd-crop2.gif)
The math tricks from there can be reused on the ML side as well, to compress the 14-bit raw data to 10-bit (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5601.msg166924#msg166924) with minimal loss in image quality (nearly lossless at higher ISOs)... if we manage to understand how to program the DIGIC image processor to apply a curve to the raw data.
Brilliant!
Recording UHD with a 1080p60fps recorder :o
Bayer data to rgb with double frame rate, altering between green channels and pixelshifting red and blue each frame. When I think about it, don't you mis some green channel resolution?
The two tricks you mentioned can recover the resolution in all channels - see for yourself:
https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/reschart-frame00001-original-raw12.jpg
https://www.apertus.org/sites/default/files/reschart-frame00001-recovered-uhd.jpg
How it works: https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/Reversing_digital_filters
Side note: I've just applied the algorithm I've used to recover the raw data from the HDMI clip on the telephone test images from http://petapixel.com/2013/09/29/newly-developed-software-helps-get-high-quality-photos-crappy-lenses/ or http://www.cs.ubc.ca/labs/imager/tr/2013/SimpleLensImaging/#results
The result surprised me as well:
(http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/crappy-lenses/their-original.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/crappy-lenses/their-recovered.jpg) (http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/apertus/crappy-lenses/my-recovered.jpg)
(their original, their recovered image, and my recovered image from their jpeg)
Wow, that's pretty darn good actually!
ah, there is some more stuff going on, you need to reverse digital filters.
And still, the results are ridiciously good!
(And I learned that it is possible to reverse a digital blur filter ;) )
I only learned about the Axiom and that it'll be co-developed by Magic Lantern yesterday. It looks to be absolutely phenomenal, and if developments can also seep through to our Canons as a byproduct then all the better! :-)
Incidentally, I like the photo of you (@a1ex) being shown the new sensor. It looks like you're wearing it like a watch. :-D
Cheers,
Mark.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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@rexocrine -- that's definitely some great news. How exactly can I take advantage of this deal? Because when I click on to purchase VAT which shows me the higher price than advertised unless I'm reading the wrong one?
Also where can I get a better understanding of which sensors I would like to order to better fit with EF Lenses?
Debating between FF and cropped sensors but instincts is telling me to go with cropped but ah I ain't so sure if the shallow DOF from the cropped is worth over the FF's advantage?
I was encouraged to hear this news btw...
Thanks!
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I don't want to sound like I'm putting a dampener on things but for essentially a box with a lens mount with no screen, media storage (requires an external recorder) or a battery compartment I would be surprised indeed if anyone would buy it at its current retail price. No offence intended.
Nearly £5k for essentially a "base unit" is putting it up against some pretty stiff and well established competition. Competition that have support staff and phone numbers too.
As it stands now with the "voucher" price, it's head-to-head with the Blackmagic Production Cinema Camera 4k. Ok, it doesn't shoot at 300fps but it does have a built-in screen, 90min battery and records directly to 2.5" SSD drives and also has a global shutter and records in RAW. Ok, you can't change the lens mount nor the sensor, but does that really matter for most buyers?
The Axiom is pitched from the stand point that it will save you money long term as it's completely upgradable. But, in 2 years time whatever the Blackmagic Production Cinema Camera costs today, it'll be substantially cheaper for the same spec - just take a look at their non-4K version which is around £1000 cheaper.
I can't help but feel that to compete in the current climate - let alone one in 2 years time - you need to add value to your products OR sell them substantially cheaper than the competition. Or both.
As it stands now the full retail price Axiom is £1000 more expensive than the behemoth Blackmagic URSA which also has a global shutter but also has 3x screens - one of which is a 10" flip out display and two others on the side(!), a plethora of connections, interchangeable lens mounts AND an upgradable sensor, not to mention 2x CFast slots and a modular battery slot. Ok, it's not designed for the indie filmmaker but the point I'm trying to make is how much more you get for your money, perceptibly.
Now, as I see it, the Axiom's real saviour is the 300fps feature. If it can do that at 4K in RAW then that's a real selling point. Whether or not it will be enough for the indie filmmaker (who, let's be honest, is the target audience here) to take the plunge and buy an Axiom - along with a complete rig for the external recorder, batteries and screen - we shall have to see.
I really hope it does well so that it can be further developed and more value added / cost reduced but in its current incarnation something needs to change for them to fly off the shelves in my humble opinion.
But hey, what do I know. I've never designed and sold a camera in my life and would be more than happy to be proved wrong in these thoughts. :-)
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A couple of questions.
I'm very interesting to get this camera.
But I live in South America, and I feel I can buy a problem and no a solution. Even If I can catch one in Europe in some travel.
I think I should wait for a last model, and no the beta to reduce the first adaptation to better models. Correct me, please.
I don't have lot of skills about very technical thngs, I only shoot my own movies for festivals. I know about the cameras working, I think, a lot. It's my everyday work in commercials renting different cameras. But for my art I use a 5D Mark III.
- One question is if exist a affordable recorder that can support 4K at 120/150,300 fps. I have found only the expensive atomo and blackmagic video assistant and only you can get 60 fps at 4K.
- The dinamic range it's better than a Mini Ursa 4,6K? I think you can answer this better than I can read at Google.
- After the promo, the camera will be around the double price, really?
Thank you.
Quote from: rexorcine on May 20, 2016, 11:32:06 PM
In addition, as each camera has its own unique IP address, and in the event that you were facing difficulties, a technical lead can jump straight in there and do the tough stuff for you.
Not sure what you mean by that. It has an IP address just like any other computer (DHCP or manually configured), but it's not necessarily unique. So, you can configure your network to allow it access the internet, if you want.
Quote from: markodarko on May 20, 2016, 08:52:36 PM
Now, as I see it, the Axiom's real saviour is the 300fps feature. If it can do that at 4K in RAW then that's a real selling point.
The sensor can do 4096x3072 at 300 fps in 10-bit mode, according to the datasheet. As I've showed here (https://files.apertus.org/AXIOM-Beta/optimal_curve.html), we can use a LUT to map this data to 8-bit with minimal quality loss, so a raw stream at 4096x3072 300fps 8-bit would require 3.5 GB/s.
The DisplayPort interface maxes out at 25.92 Gbit/s or 3.24 GB/s (source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#1.3)), so with a small crop, it should be doable.
The problem is... how do you save that image to a storage device?
- Somebody could probably design an external recorder with lots of RAM (expensive), that could save the image to some slow media afterwards.
- I guess it would only be practical if we manage to implement some serious compression in the FPGA (MJPEG?), but that's not something I expect in the next months from my side (it's not a full-time job for me).
The current implementation runs at 30 fps.
Quote from: budafilms on May 21, 2016, 07:20:43 AM
- The dynamic range it's better than a Mini Ursa 4,6K? I think you can answer this better than I can read at Google.
There are some promising experiments regarding PLR modes, but I'm not ready with the calibration. Without HDR tricks, the DR of this sensor is not spectacular at all (to me, it looks very similar to the Ursa 4K images I've analyzed earlier in this thread).
My personal opinion:
Currently it's a just a developer kit. If you plan to design a custom interface for it, or to write custom application code, without having to deal with reverse engineering, it's a nice option.
If you just want to use it for filming, and you expect it to be better than 5D3, I'm afraid it's not ready yet. It does record 4K UHD compressed RAW at 30 fps with an external recorder, it has global shutter, it runs Linux, but that's pretty much it. At this stage, you should really not be afraid of the terminal in order to use it. If you can compile ML, you'll have no problems using it.
The main selling point IMO is being able to program it without reverse engineering. This camera is not meant to get stuck at the current capabilities - they promise it will evolve and improve continuously, but that really depends on the open source community around it.
And yes, I also think the price is really high for what it does *right now*, but I'm not sure what I can do about it. Will let the Apertus guys answer this one.
An excellent reply. Thank you @a1ex. A lot there for people to digest who may otherwise be on the fence about purchasing.
Cheers,
Mark.
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Indeed an excellent reply by @a1ex and thanks to those that questioned all of this which lead to those answers as I feel better with how I stand and it'll definitely come down to cost and usefulness. Though I still believe it's quite high of a price at least for me.
Thanks @A1ex, you are my movies ;)
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And the team talk volume 11 !
https://youtu.be/8DmGXpMnm7M
I hope this is the right place to post this, if not I apologize and please feel free to remove this post.
I am Beta backer and have already payed the first rate for my axiom beta camera. Unfortunately a long time has passed and I am no longer able to finance the rest of the rates.
Is anyone here interested in a transfer of my axiom beta voucher and so being able to get an axiom beta at cost ?
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The Apertus association was just accepted in the Google Summer of Code project. So, if you are looking for a way to implement something cool and get paid by Google, please submit your proposals by March 20.
https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/organizations/4801281785856000/
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This is really cool @rexorcine
I don't know if you're a contributor to this project, but some points:
- The last github repository (https://github.com/apertus-open-source-cinema/opencine) commit was 3 months ago. Is it the correct repository?
- There's no license file on code tree
- As pointed here (https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/OpenCine.Features), the OpenCL and OpenFX / TuttleOFX is planned. This is great and it's the highlight of this project, in my opinion. Any possibility to enable the OpenFX pluggins for Non-Local Means Denoise and SharpenCImg (Laplacian)?
- Will it have fine control for color rendering, like Color Spaces and 3D LUT's?
The team developing OpenCine should look more into what other open source projects already did, like Natron (https://natron.fr/), Flowblade (https://jliljebl.github.io/flowblade/), Blender (https://www.blender.org/) and Rawtherapee (http://rawtherapee.com/). There's many libraries already implemented...
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If all goes wrong you can use Canon sensors together with a1ex's qemu work and a raspbi and call it A1EXIOM :P
Quotecall it A1EXIOM
haha, this made my day :D.
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thanks for the update ;)
Great.
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thanks for the pointer :)
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I hope to see the same spirit with the Apertus that we see here.
Recent news:
AXIOM Team Talk 15.4 is about optical filters (like UV & IR filters) and Firmware 2.0
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-team-talk-15-4-optical-filters-firmware-2-article-june-2020
AXIOM Team Talk 15.5 and 16.1 is about our first industrial hardware production run:
https://www.apertus.org/axiom-team-talk-16-1-and-15-5-industrial-hardware-production-run-sept-2021
Also we have successfully found a way to record uncompressed 12 bit 4K video from the camera (eventually!) and I created a thread about the color science efforts on this front here:
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=26299.new#new